By giles farmer on Sep 13, 2008

Its true! In Europe the government is way more law-abiding, less crime everywhere. The police there are not really the enemy, just civil servants and countrymen like everyone else.

Those “LEO” had a great suggestion- Abolish the Police. I vote yea 10x over.

See, they’re not so dumb after all…

By J.Doe on Sep 5, 2008

Uggh

By fornetti on Aug 31, 2008

I do not believe this

By George 2 on Jul 18, 2008

Interesting post from Germany, here in US It’s absolute 0 tolerance traffic laws. 1 mph over and your a criminal. No regard to possible speedometer error, instrument calibration deviations, or human error. Come on what do police terrorizing citizens really want from us? can’t be for safety, that’s paying attention to the road and just may range in or out of speed limit or have your head down checking and maintaining a speed limit and that’s not safe driving. I love those 25 mph limits in town 2 lane roads that are as wide as the autobahn, speed trap ville an pure harassment of law abiding citizens.

By C.G.L on May 9, 2008

Chief:
Why is it that law enforsment can run up and down the road as fast as they like and no one can do anything about it?
I have seen a Sheriff car run 90mph down the interstate. I know this becaus I paced him all the way to the office. He was in plain cloths and took his time getting out of the car. Now some would say the he may have been on duty at the time . If this is true then why did he have to go so fast to get home. You see he past me on my way home and he lives about two miles from my house. He was home before I was and he was home all evening.
Don’t get me worng I know that things are hard on our men and women in uniform. They don’t get the the respect they should. But that does not give them the right to put my life and others in harms way just so they can get home or where ever they maybe going.
If it is an emergency turn on your light so we will know.

By elwood on May 8, 2008

I live in Germany. I found this article quite surprising and would call such practice corruption indeed.

Not that we don’t have speed traps in Germany, but politicians and local administration know quite well how to keep speed trapping acceptable.

It would be a big topic at the next election if methods were as harsh and fines as high as described in the article and discussed in this forum.

Sometimes our secretary of traffic talks about rising the fines, but this is usually about fines for capital offences, extreme speeding, drunken drivers, and the like.

A number of speed traps we have here are fixed automatic installations. Offenders may require to see the photo.

These speed traps are commonly known, but people keep getting trapped by them … now, that’s their own fault.

If police officers operate speed trap equipment they have to be trained to do so in order to avoid false measurements and possible subsequent court action.

The speed trap devices have to be exact and checked regularly. Despite this, 3 kilometers/hour (~2 m.p.h) are subtracted from any result - the authorities here want to avoid every doubt about it from the start.

Police cars following speeding offenders have to follow them for serveral hundred meters at least, the police car’s speedometer has to be an approved one and two officers have to report the offender. Despite this, 20 percent of the speed taken have to be subtracted (probably with the exception of video cars).

And usually, they don’t issue fines if the speed limit has not been exceeded clearly, i.e by 5 m.p.h. or so.

It’s pretty usual on our roads that our speedometers show “60″ while the limit is indeed 50 kilometers/hour (31 mph) inside towns and cities.

We know the speedometer to be a bit optimistic about the true speed and the police ignoring a minimal excess.

Drive, say, 65 (~40 mph) in a speed trap and be sure to have your ticket - and that’s alright.

The lowest speed limits we got are 30 km/h (19 mph). Just be a bit more careful there.

Altogether, if a driver gets a ticket for speeding in Germany, he *definitely* was too fast.

Cases where device were working inexactly or police officers did not operate them as intended are rare and are usually overturned in court (we had a laugh here a number of years back with unexact devices tracking trucks at 250 m.p.h or so …:=)

Of course, local politicians always count a certain amount of fines to add to the budget every year. But they still know that they must keep police action acceptable and not overtighten the nut.

At last, it’s also better for the police’s reputation to keep speed trapping reasonable.

Now, our police’s reputation is good…

Greetings from Germany
“elwood”

By Billy the Kid on Mar 3, 2008

I just want to say dont speed through the city of morrow. The blue Morrow Police Heat cars or always pulling someone over. They have gave me 2 tickets already. I learned my lesson and drive under the speed limit in Morrow.

By James on Feb 18, 2008

The City of Duluth, Ga. fined my son $1,351.00 because he had 2 wheels over the blue line in a handicaapped space. Georgia law says $100 - $500 not $1,351.00. This is a clear vilolation of the constittutional amendment 8. I suspect they have a history of excessive fines. I am establishing a website http://www.unfairtickets.info to bring people together and make a group effortt to bring this human rigghts abuse to a stop. Not only in Duluth, but across the country.

By Joe on Feb 3, 2008

Gregg, as you’ so found out, treading lightly while traversing Hwy 75 is not always a guarantee you won’t get hit with a traffic citation. It’s a undeniable fact that these little towns leach off the driving public. Last year when Caney and Stringtown were under prohibition for a breif time, BEFORE the speed trap law was cunningly vaporized by their infamous state representative, Caney nearly went bankrupt and Stringtown cut back dramatically and lade off most of it’s officers and some of the town city hall staff. I know, I have several articles that were scanned into a file for me from the local paper. If there ever was a case for a strong speed trap law, they are it. Caney even won the NMAs’ award for the worst speed trap in OK.

Last year ‘07 their state representative, who is a retired OHP, stealthily got the speed trap law rescinded right from under the noses of all the other state legislators. After the law was signed, panic set in because this was not the intent of the bill. The legislature hurriedly set about reviving the law just before the legislative session ended for the year last year but it has never been the same. It now takes a public official to submit a request for a audit of a municipality. Formerly any citizen could request to the Attorney General for an audit. Additionally, since this was a rush job, they forgot to add an emergency clause to the bill so it took six months for it to go into effect. Conversely, the deletion of the law by this cunning state rep. had a emergency clause in it so it took effect as soon as the governor signed it. That meant they had 6 mo.s to write tickets BEFORE the law again took effect. Then they would have a year to exceed their quota of fifty percent before they could again be chastised by the law. Time will tell if they get prohibited again. During the time the legislature was not in session this same legislator was going to go around to these little towns and apparently explain ways to get around or avoid the law.

The thing that really blew me away was after the law was reenacted by the legislature, this particular legislator had the audacity to stand up and proclaim that he didn’t think elected officials should be setting law enforcement policy. It’s OK for everybody else to be effected by the laws of the land…..except the police. The point that this legislator seems to forget (or mention) is that the speed trap law never prevented traffic law enforcement, just the amount of revenue they can collect. As if we didn’t need further proof, the fact that this is even an issue with this legislator and the municipalities he represents is a clear indication of the importance of revenue. If revenue wasn’t the main reason for traffic stops then this law should have no affect on traffic control enforcement what-so-ever.

By Gregg on Jan 20, 2008

Officer Josh - I slowed down as I approached the sign indicating lower speed limits. It was pitch black so I never saw the police car until he was behind me with lights flashing. Bottom line is I was traveling at the speed limit because I know this trap is here. There is no town on the highway-just a single c-store. Therefore, no street lights are illuminating the highway or roadsides. The cop couldn’t keep up with the vehicle he clocked because it was so dark and the “speeding” vehicle passed me after I was already in the slower speed zone. It’s too dark for the cop to tell which car is which so why is he writing tickets. If it were a legitimate court I could fight the ticket. But since this is about revenue for the Stringtown leaches, I’m sure the court is a joke. Not worth my taking day off work and traveling 225 miles roundtrip–easier to pay their $120 ransom.

By Joe on Jan 19, 2008

After driving for 40 years + and reading James Youngs’ posts I’m having a hard time finding fault with them. Many city budgets have traffic fine money as part of their budget. Smaller towns tend to have more budgeted for traffic fines. Quota’s ARE legal in Oklahoma and I assure you they are used. I’d like to see quota’s illegal in this state but where is the support for such. Drivers would rather continue the rape that goes on then write a few sentences to their elected legislative officials. In many respects I guess we pretty much get what we ask for…more of the same. I don’t know where all the NMA members in this state are? If you can’t get those people involved who can you get?
And James Young is exactly right when he exclaims “There has never been a campaign conducted where a candidate opposed quotas or speed traps as a major plank in his campaign.” I’ve noted there hasn’t even been a candidate whose MINOR plank in a campaign was such so it’s easy for LEO’s to echo this familiar remark in defense of their acts. If you don’t like the law, get it changed….ya right!
In OK people can’t even get considered to run as a candidate unless they fall all over themselves promising supporting law enforcement. Every candidate has to be “tough on crime”. Each has to exclaim how much tougher they can be then their opponent. So how this translates from what most citizens consider crime meaning rapists, burglars, murders,….. over into misdemeanor traffic control violations perplexes me. And the lobbying by LEO organizations and municipal organizations don’t just stop at election day. I’ve seen few legislators reject any kind of traffic control legislation because LEO’s and the Municipal League lobbies your elected officials to be tough on criminals because that’s what the promised during the election campaign. I guess we want to lump misdemeanor traffic infractions right in with the aforementioned…..NOT!
Come on LEO’s, lets just admit that most traffic control is about money. You can easily to prove if all of us are wrong. Give all the money from traffic control activities to charities or the school system, both of which would be greatly appreciative. Even the drivers might feel better knowing his/her money was going for a good purpose instead of supporting a corrupt system for more of the same. It’ll be a cold day in Hell before we see that scenario play out!
If there were any incremental safety benefit to traffic fines, that quickly gets lost when most of us feel like it’s simply a money game, the cost of getting there.

By Joe on Jan 19, 2008

Gregg, if your driving Hwy 75 between Tulsa and Dallas, I don’t have to tell you that’s speed trap alley, not just Stringtown. See the NMA speed trap site. Caney may be the worst as it received the honorary worst speed trap in Oklahoma award in a survey done by the NMA. Caney is believed to operative almost totally off traffic tickets and it’s the only reason it is in existence. I know a gentlement who lives near there. All these little towns hijack the driving public. Those of us who know this need to be contacting our legislators to do something about it! I have a letter in the works now. The Oklahoma legislative session starts in about two weeks.
My wife is a Texan and has a cousin living near Dallas. We drive clear out of our way, Tulsa, OKC, to Dallas via I-35 to avoid radar alley. I hope your mother is better.

By barneyfife on Jan 19, 2008

http://www.freewebs.com/barneyfife1/

ALL ticket writers are CROOKS
True law enforcement officers protect and serve not write traffic tickets

By EyeO on Jan 15, 2008

I just want to say I hate the city of morrow ga

By Officer Josh on Jan 13, 2008

Gregg,

Did you slow down when you saw the police vehicle or before you saw the police vehicle?

By James Young on Jan 13, 2008

The cops in Stringtown are not POST-certified. There is doubt about at least one of them even graduating from HS. Stringtown has been a leach since about 1973.

Once, when I was researching a potential article for the Los Angeles Times, I tried to interview the mayor and some officers but they want publicity even less than they want poison ivy.

By Gregg on Jan 13, 2008

Personal story on Stringtown OK Police; the problem with this particular one is the “cops” they hire aren’t enough bright enough to keep track of the vehicles they’re clocking. I drive this stretch from Dallas to Tulsa many times during the year with an ailing mother in Tulsa so I’m well aware of their tactics. I slow down below speed limit to no avail. Another vehicle passed me unaware of the trap ahead, and then suddenly hit their brakes. It was pitch dark since no town really exits (only a lone c-store) and I never saw where the cop was. Suffice to say he wasn’t smart enough to keep up with the actual car he clocked so pulled me over instead of the other car and I get to pay the $120 toll through this “leach” town. Such a disgusting way to pay one’s way through life stealling money from the motoring public. They’re no better than the burglars who break into homes and steal people’s hard earned items.

By Officer Josh on Dec 21, 2007

Mark,

There is no point in debating the issue here b/c you’ll never change my mind and ill never change yours especially when it comes to left handed james young. Thats why this is an infinite debate

By Mark on Dec 17, 2007

Very well done James. Looks as if Mr. Government pawn has given up the debate.
No wonder, when in order to be a police officer your IQ must be around 105.
Don’t take my word for it. Read this story..
http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_56314.html

By James Young on Dec 5, 2007

I do not seek your pity and I, too, have had to deal with arrogant, intransigent and ill-informed LEOs for over 50 years.

I have one advantage over cops: I’m not protecting any institution so my freedom of thought is unimpeded. I only wish those who enforce the laws could enjoy that same freedom.

By Ken Arthur, Ret.. Police Chief on Dec 5, 2007

Mr.Young, I have met and had to deal with people who act and think about the same way you for over half a century. Normally, I feel Sorry for them and just move on. Thats what I’m going to do with you. As the well trained Officer often says: “You have a nice day,Sir.”
PS: GET A REAL LIFE!

By James Young on Dec 5, 2007

“I had a friend who got killed on a traffic stop, trying to protect people like the Mr. Youngs of this world and sometimes I get touchy w/their lack of real life things. . .” – Ken Arthur

Making a traffic stop does not protect me. Don’t bother to blow smoke up my pants to tell me that you’re doing it for my own good. You cannot protect me. I don’t ask that you protect me. I can protect myself through thoughtful, responsible action except from those that claim to protect me.

Just how arrogant is it to take tens of billions from drivers every year, all the while whispering in their ear how it’s for their own good.

By Ken Arthur, Ret.. Police Chief on Dec 5, 2007

Josh & Hubcap, I don’t worry about Mr. Young or anyone or anything. Retired 3 times, drawing the BIG BUCKS, having a great life.
I had a friend who got killed on a traffic stop, trying to protect people like the Mr. Youngs of this world and sometimes I get touchy w/their lack of real life things… You Guys, “Be Careful Out There”

By Hubcap on Dec 5, 2007

Josh, stats are reality represented in mathematical terms, but you already knew that.

What gets me is the all or nothing attitude I see from the LEOs who post here. If anyone brings up an incidence of overzealous law enforcement, or questions the viability of a law, the response is always something like “you want anarchy with criminals running free.”

Of course not. What we want is balance; reasonable laws fairly enforced. I’m going to guess that what we are really arguing about is what’s reasonable and what’s fair.

Obviously the police have minimal say in what the laws are, (and here’s a news flash: so do us citizens) but you are in complete control of how those laws are enforced.

We tend too much to equate legality and illegality with right and wrong. There are many things that are legal, but harmful, and by the same token many things that harm no one, but are illegal. I think this is the source of much of the excesses of law enforcement; cops tend to see themselves as soldiers on the front lines of our national morality.

The other factor is completely the fault of the citizenry. We as a society have come to expect a law enforcement solution to every problem. Can’t discipline your kids? Call the police. Too lazy to walk next door and ask your neighbor to turn down his stereo? Call the police. Traffic problems? Drugs? Don’t do the work and spend the money to find a real solution, just call the police.

We have to learn (again) that we cannot simply legislate our problems away.

By Officer Josh on Dec 5, 2007

To Ken Arthur, Ret.. Police Chief

Your 100% right dont worry about james young he’s just a stats jocky and doesnt look at reality. Things on paper isnt whats on the street. He only looks at what the police dont do and not what they do every day. Its easy to critique a profession that you know nothing about. I could critique a CEO of a corporation easy but it wouldnt be valid b/c i dont know how to run a company.