Why The 2009 Camaro Is Doomed
May 15th, 2008 Posted in Auto Industry, Car Reviews, Eric Peters
By Eric Peters, Automotive Columnist
Motorheads don’t want to hear it; refuse to believe it — but ugly realities are coming down hard on the ‘09 Camaro that will very possibly cause GM to pull the plug before the first one ever rolls off the line.
Doubt that? Consider the stillborn rear-wheel-drive next generation Chevy Impala — nixed because of concerns within GM about the possibility of meeting the pending (2012) 35 mpg fuel economy edict recently passed by Congress. A lighter front-drive car with a V-6 instead of a V-8 can make the cut; a V-8 RWD Impala can’t. So it’s gone. So is the talked-about next generation GTO. And the future of the G8 sedan looks not so good. GM is openly talking about scaling back the entire Pontiac division — and ending its role as a performance brand.
No bull; not my opinion. Just facts.
Now consider the 2009 Camaro — and the world in which it will have to swim. Gas prices are already surging toward $4 per gallon for regular unleaded. And Camaro’s not even here yet. By the time the car reaches production status in about eight months or so, we may very well be at $5 per gallon.
Maybe more.
At the same time, the buying power of the dollar is falling down the well — so everything is becoming more expensive, not just gas. And most of us are not making more money to compensate. Quite the opposite. Inflation and income stagnation are hitting us hard. Those of us who still have jobs and have been able to maintain the same income we had a year or so ago are few, thankful — and nervous. Buying a new car is not on our agenda. And buying a frivolous new car even less so. Camaro is not an exotic; it is a “Joe Sixpack” kind of car — so middle class and working class buyer skittishness is no small thing.
GM is well aware of these facts — which are going to kneecap Camaro (and any car like it) on the consumer level. Whatever the projected sales potential was two years ago should probably be cut in half. Bet your bippie that the bean counters within GM have thought about this, too.
That’s bad enough — and by itself could be sufficient to make going ahead with Camaro in 2009 about as sensible as building something like a Series 62 Cadillac would have been in 1979.
But wait, there’s more. Don’t forget the 10,000 pound Tallboy bomb that’s about to fall onto GM’s head (and ours) in the form of the 35 mpg CAFE edict. That changes … everything. The recession, crippling gas prices and declining buying power of the dollar are merely the coupe de grace.
A V-6 Camaro could maybe meet the current 27.5 mpg CAFE requirement for passenger cars without major engineering changes/expenses or hitting buyers with a “gas guzzler” surcharge that would bump the purchase price of the car up by $1,000 or more.
But 35 mpg? Only a few four-cylinder economy compacts and hybrids make it under that bar. Anything much over about 3,200 pounds with an engine larger than 3 liters is getting iffy. With a 300-plus hp V-8 engine and rear-wheel-drive?
Forget it.
Don’t believe it? Chew on this:
The current Ford Mustang GT — a car very similar in layout/power and so on to the pending ‘09 Camaro — manages just 17 mpg in city driving and 26 mpg on the highway. That’s with the 4 liter V-6 engine, by the way. The GT’s 4.6 liter V-8 (300 hp) slurps it down at the rate of 15 mpg in the city and 23 mpg on the highway. To survive 35 mpg CAFE, the V-8 Mustang GT would have to somehow nearly double its current average fuel economy. How is this going to be achieved, exactly? Think Ford is worried about the Mustang’s viability?
You’d better believe it.
The new Dodge Challenger is in even worse shape, CAFE wise. Its wonderful 6.1 liter V-8 won’t last long in this world, given city mileage of 13 mpg — and highway mileage that isn’t even out of the teens (18 mpg). Yes, a V-6 version is coming, but the most efficient engines of this size/type that Chrysler has available – like Ford — don’t come close to delivering 35 mpg.
Camaro’s in the same pickle. Neither the base V-6 version nor the high-powered V-8 model have a prayer of achieving CAFE compliance. If they’re produced, buyers will be facing huge “gas guzzler” surcharges that will only add to the growing roster of negatives arguing against making a purchase — from $75 fill-ups to the general uselessness of cars of these type, beyond their ability to provide a good time.
And here’s the deal: Chrysler’s already on the hook; the commitment to production has been made. It will have to at least try to make a go of it. For awhile. Ford has a strong buyer base for the Mustang; a case can be made that even with gas guzzler fees and generally awful times, economically speaking, it’s worth trying to hold the line — at least, for the moment.
But Camaro?
GM no longer has a sure bet buyer base; the name has been out of circulation for almost seven years now. That is a long time, regardless of other external issues, such as gas prices. Rebuilding a brand/make of car is tough in the best of times. In bad times, it is a fool’s errand. And it’s a luxury that cash-strapped, no longer number one GM cannot afford to indulge. If Camaro sinks — as all signs indicate it will — GM will lose a ton of money. Remember that unlike Challenger (which is “spun off” the existing Charger sedan) GM has had to invest a great deal in what amounts to a brand-new platform/tooling and so on to make this happen. Big sales are needed to make it up. It increasingly looks as though that is extremely unlikely to happen.
Which is why GM may just abort the whole thing before it ever sees the light of day.
You wait and see.
Comments?
www.ericpetersautos.com
Image Credit: Chevrolet
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oh man was this guy wrong
Guess the Joke is on you Eric Peters!
James, Thank you, we try to keep our scents pleasant around here, thanks for noticing. Come back and comment anytime.
I think you smell…….
I just thought I would put my two cents in here. All the gas mileage aside, it was a VERY stupid move to get rid of the Camaro name plate. The Camaro is GM’s flagship vehicle along with the Vette although arguably the Camaro is better known than the Vette is. I guess basically what I’m trying to say is, WHY did they get rid the Camaro anyway!?!? Whether you like Chevy or not, (which I do NOT) the Camaro is in fact an American icon. Getting rid of it in the first place was totally stupid!!
Mr. Peters, I have been reading many articles from you and have come to the conclusion that you sir are a moron. You do realize that the past 6 speed versions of the Camaro ran low 13 second/high 12 second quarter mile times and still got 28-32 mpg on the highway cruzing at 75-80. Hell I have a 99 Z28 with a slushbox auto 4 speed and I get over 24. I see a shit load of cars coming out with FWD and V6’s that claim close to 30mpg and don’t see anywhere near it. My wife’s 2007 Saturn Aura 3.5L isn’t supposed to get 31 mpg onthe hwy either but have averaged that over three tanks on a long trip. It also isn’t supposed to get 23 mpg in the city, but it does, and this is with a 4 speed auto by the way. The way people drive makes a huge difference. I have a friend that bought a 2008 Nissan Altima 4 cylinder auto and she gets around 28-29 on the highway on long trips. Smaller car with “more effeicient” engine and gets worse milage. Looks like your wrong about th G8 as well the GT has been reportedly getting high 20’s low 30’s on MGP on the highway. So go F yourself on all this BS about FWD and 4 & 6 cylinder cars. Just wait till GM or Ford get a small displacment V8 with direct injection pushing 400-450 hp and get 35-40 mpg with them. If you understand how an engine works, then you can unserstand HOW they can achive this. CAMARO DOOMED?? I doubt it.
G’day mate, I’m not too sure what the fuel stations exactly contain over there ( I’m an aussie by the way ), but here we have LPG in pretty much every station ( i’ve never actually seen one without LPG ). Seeing as the the block and cylinder head material is aluminium ( aussie don’t forget ), we would be able to put LPG in it without much trouble. We would maybe need to change the cast-in-place iron bore liners but that would be about it.
By the way to get a car converted to gas over here its about $3000 AUS and you also get a rebate of about $2500 AUS. Oh, and “regular” petrol ( called unleaded here ) right now stands at about $0.95 a litre ( we had a top of $1.70-ish a litre ) and LPG stands at around $0.65 a litre which does not get affected by oil prices. It stayed at that price straight through the “$4 a Gallon” stage. You also only lose about 20 hp and gain a fair bit of “mileage” from the conversion as well.
We’ve seen the hand-built Camaros cruising around the outskirts of melbourne recently as well which was a sight!
All in all I’m only 19 and I will be buying the 6.2L V8 ( I’m not one of those idiot young drivers by the way ) and i do earn in excess of $70 000 AUS per annum. This car will be mine! haha. Oh… and that 35 mpg fuel economy edict thing that you guys get… we actually get a tax on vehicle size. Small cars will have a price drop ( Civic GTi, etc… ), sedan sized vehicles will receive no difference ( Ford XR’s, Holden VE’s, CAMARO, etc… and large vehicles will receive an increase in price ( 4WD, Vans, etc… ).
Gotta LOVE the Aus!
there is more to life than good gas mileage:D
Author: Robert nc dec 10
Comment:
Well vic it sounds to me like you might be a little jealous of the Camaro,could
it possibly be that you are a ford man!
Vic Replies:
Nope. was a Chevy man all my life till i got disgusted with the Cheesy looking and cheesy built Camaros of the 80’s, Most of them look they failed the wind tunnel test with those ugly shapes. Yep Chevy gets a big F in design and so do the follower flunkees who like that junk.
Chevy is also looking like it failed consumer satisfaction more and more with the stupid wedge and bulbous shaped junk they’ve made over the last several years. All i can think of is Fisher Price when i see Chevy any more: in fact i hold more respect for them, and Cobalt just cannot get my respect.
I am not interested in Chevrolet any more. Chevy really does not make anything that holds my interest: maybe the ‘Vette does a little. I am somewhat proud that this new ‘Vette costs much less that its Euro counterpart sport cars, and outperforms most of them. Yet im Not a Ford Man either; but the retro ‘Stang as I said before in this blog (god bless this cool blog), gets it right.
The ‘Stang and Camaro traditionally have been the “working mans car”; well…as most pony cars have, and the ‘Vette is a car of selective interest, and does not hold mine…except for the fact that i like it kicks ass on foreign Sport cars for the most part.
No one really denies that the newly designed “old” ‘Stang looks hot. As a Chevy man I’ve always liked Ford Mustangs for their looks: they always looked hot to me; but I was always partial to Chevrolet for the same reasons most likely Camaro supporters here are. But have to say; the Mustang is totally respectable; and holds that American tradition (and came back with retro first)of looks and performance and muscle that American cars traditionally have: yep I’m proud to me an American unlike lets say some haters who are only proud for the first time in their lives to be an American since the last election; and maybe Chevy got them to have a little pride again in their life with the advent of the retro Camaro. I dont know.
For most for whom design is of no importance, maybe they have a slight to severe case of attention deficit disorder, need something new all the time. But the way i see it…If the Porsche can hold essentially the same design for 40 some years, why cant American cars ? That’s the basic insecurity of the American Auto industry.
So once again to me, Design is important and with a big fat ‘09 Camaro designed by someone who had his nose in the air; that shows me little respect for ingenuity in design of the Camaro which should have had much more care taken in bringing back a classic design like the ‘69.
That you like it is your business, that you don’t like my describing how I don’t like it; is something that you have to deal with.
Vic
Well vic it sounds to me like you might be a little jealous of the camaro,could it possibly be that you are a ford man!
Nice car!
“Gas prices are already surging toward $4 per gallon for regular unleaded. And Camaro’s not even here yet. By the time the car reaches production status in about eight months or so, we may very well be at $5 per gallon.”
Well, gas is now well under 2 dollars a gallon. Some experts even predict sub-1 dollar prices. So much for your prediction.
Chew on THAT, Mr. Peters.
Hey guys, I love the car!! i once was the proud owner of a #’s matching 69 Z/28. I regret ever selling it. I will for one will be in the market. Why? im a very slim, curvy secretary with long auburn hair that turns many heads. When i drive to work in a sexy machine, I want all the guys to see that a hottie has some musclecar blood in her too. Its not just a guy thing. I escpecially love to hike up my skirt and give a little leg show for you when i’m wearing my mid thigh business skirt, stiletto heels and suntan pantyhose.
Nikki
Wow, your not conceited at all. Your probally fat though.
Brandon, I was just wondering if you had a point laying around here somewhere? Considering the topic of this thread whether Nikki is fat or not is niether here nor there.
#s matching maros are afind for sure, especially one containing a gift like you describe yourself… you should pull up in an ‘09 for the Dip Stick who wrote this article, make him drool and then tell him how dumb he is. but thats just me saying that.
My next car will be a rusty ‘78 Suburban. It’s going to get 100 mpg/passenger with Peters and dozen more greenie-facists chained to the rear bumper during during my commute. Hey, don’t trip and fall under the cement mixer my buddy’s driving!
I’m going to keep this in mind next election. This time around I voted Democratic, but if they want to shove us all into tin cans like last time (’80s CAFE standards), we can shove them back into the minority party.
20-30 actual mpg in highway driving is pretty good in my book; the 4 cylinder sh*t boxes I’ve had typically got 22-25 in actual commuting. V8s by contrast were more relaxing to drive and got maybe 4mpg less. A typical city/metro bus line averages about that, with noisy polluting buses clogging the roads and not showing up when you need them. Compared to that, an SRT8 far better transportation.
The 60’s are dead. Ancient history. A horrible time to have lived. Why reprise styling themes from this era? Guess some old timers can’t get this livid era out of their minds.
Well if you wanna drive a generic looking egg go right ahead.
Ok, so fuel prices are dropping, but for how long? I believe people are getting wiser (THANKFULLY) and are fearful of another surge in fuel prices. More people are (THANKFULLY) are actually interested in owning a vehicle that actually attains respectable fuel economy. That said, I wish to comment on the 2009 Camaro. First of all, I really believe this car will be a poor seller. Why? One reason is it’s backward styling. Fashioning it after the 1969 Camaro was a serious ERROR! The ‘69 Camaro, in my opinion, wasn’t exactly the prettiest Camaro built. The interior of the 2009 Camaro is just plain ugly. The 2009 Camaro looks like a badly bloated and contorted 1969 version. The Camaro, like the dreadful retro-Challenger will capture a fringe of customers. The Challenger will no doubt be a major sales disaster. There is NO chance in hell that the Camaro will be a “must have” and dealers won’t be able to keep enough in stock. They’ll sell, but how many and for how long? The folks at Chevy need to get that retro crap out of their blood. Remember the hideous retro inspired SSR truck thingy? The folks at Chrysler need to get the retro crap out of their blood, too. The 2009 Challenger is even a bigger mistake than the Camaro. Any wonder why Chrysler is on the brink of death????
Well, I’m glad to say that the gas price prediction is wrong. We are back down to $2.20 in my area. I doubt it will go up three bucks in a month or so. But those seem to be pretty viable concerns. I always thought it looked cool though.
Maybe all these car companies need to figure out how to shave off all the unnecessary weight. i.e all the unnecessary add-ons, gadgets, and things.
People People!!! There is technology aready here that can help a vehicle to get both good performance and good MPG. Those whould include Variable Cylinder Management (VCM), E85, USLD diesel fuel which reduces emissions and gives the vehicle better MPG and torque, more gears, CVT transmissions, hybrids, and the good old turbocharger. All of those things are aready here. Guess What!!! there are better technology being invented as we speak and more to come. Those vehicle manufactures will just have to adjust to the changes based on the CAFE in which was passed by congress but I know it will be a challenge.
Here are some interesting vehicles in which you might want to take a look at.
1) Honda FCX Clarity (Hydrogen Fuel Cell)
2) Volkswagen Jetta TDI (40+ MPG)
3) BMW X5 Turbo Diesel Hybrid
4) Honda Accord 3.5 V6 (VCM)
There is a new comment on the post “Why The 2009 Camaro Is Doomed”.
http://www.motorists.org/blog/why-the-2009-camaro-is-doomed/
Author: die hard
Comment:
Vintage Vic,
Put your old dodge carvan away and look at the new generation.
this car is awesome and being envious of it will get your comments no where.
I know i will have one and hope to have it as long as i had owned my iroc of the
80’s.
13 plus great years.
You guys just keep making my point for me. “We want what we want” is no argument; and thus you cant make a good comment or sustain an argument.
Again that doesn’t matter: i always expect this. Any old snowball can start an avalanche but that doesn’t mean much in the face of the facts. It just means your taste is lacking as is your knowledge of design.
Vic
Vintage Vic,
Put your old dodge carvan away and look at the new generation.
this car is awesome and being envious of it will get your comments no where.
I know i will have one and hope to have it as long as i had owned my iroc of the 80’s.
13 plus great years.
this thread is dead. theres nothing else to prove. And no point getting all economical and shet, because sooner or later there will be limits on the amount that a car can consume. so… my final thoughts are…altough the camaro may not outsell the challenger, ( in which case we will have to wait and see) i do believe the camaro has established firm roots for future sales that will outsell the challenger long term.
That is my opinion. agree or disagree i do not care. After all, if GM merges with Chrysler, shet could change drastically.
Airplanes, boats, and trains should also be required to meet fuel economy requirements.
Vintage Vic I think that eventially Tony will be correct in that all cars will have to get 35 mpg unless we have enough repacement energy for cars. The big V8s and V6s will only be seen in vehicles that need to pull something big.
Tony Says:
All cars that dont get 35 mpg should be banned world wide, they are destroying
the planet and wildlife. the earths core itself is powered by rich fuels.
anybody driving around in a v8 or suv without having a family should be arrested
and fried/killed in the electric bench in virginia. there is no sense in
destroying the planets fossel fuels and being a fat overweight slime blob at the
sane time. as with 7 out of 10 v8 owners are overweight steak eaters that
deserve hell anyway.
This moron is the enemy of the planet: the enemy of animals and humans both. The pseudo environmental book nerd whacko lib who still thinks slaves are still around. The terrorist SUV burning liberal who set fire in the name of “tolerance and compassion”and saving the planet burning suv’s.
A kind of American terrorist who thinks high taxes make good economics, who think that recreation needs to be regulated and then shut down because its fun. The classic communist who denies any ties to communism, but spews the Marx playbook word for word.
This unhappy hate hedonist and all like him want govt controlling our life, taxing us into poverty and making peoples lives generally miserable: He is the grinch who stole Christmas; and is proud of it. He is energized by his anger yet calls on the virtues of Jesus’s compassion . The kind who thinks that wealth should be redistributed from those who earned it to those who didnt.
Take a good look at this person and see just who it is who will take your paycheck and place you in the food lines, in order to feed those who don’t work, and give them a home to boot from your earnings. This is the invisible fascist who wants to ruin your life because he is not a fun person and will deny others of it.
This is the person who says others are uneducated but cant find any proof of global warming yet the argument is over without a debate: he is a fascist in a capitalist world: a misfit out of place, an Apple Bonker in Pepperland who’s anger will make you feels his unhappiness; who silences all the music and merriment. The Apple bonker in Pepperland; bonking you silent with his sour Apple. But lets get back to cars and away from czars.
Yes there will be a new Mustang to compete with the new Camaro to compete with the Dodge Challenger. Cant you see what the Camaro is doing then: bringing out the competition of the old days between the big three which like then will inspire a new era of car sales that is sorely needed in the lagging American car market? The need to spur car sales on with new fast and fun cars is a necessity in a nation who’s local resources and manufacturing base is outsourced to foreign countries.
This is the opportunity to bring back competition in professional racing, to bring back the fun of owning a piece of the great American past time: the American Muscle Car.
The new dodge challenger will challenge the new Camaro which will challenge an even newer and stronger Mustang. Frankly though I dont see how much better it gets than having a new Saleen Mustang to prowl the streets flexing its looks and muscle. In the end the Camaro will only hope to be this pretty.
Well as usual time will tell which of you are pinheads on this blog and which actually know what they are talking about. As of this point however the Camaro pre-sales are already kicking the Challanger SRT, and the V6 version has much more to offer all around than the Challanger V6. Ford is doing everything they can to get a new Mustang out that actually competes with the new Camaro, which shows that the current Mustang does not compete well head to head with the new Camaro. So for those of you who are so sure the Camaro is not going to sell you might want to wait and see before you put your foot in your mouth any deeper than you already have.
all cars that dont get 35 mpg should be banned world wide, they are destroying the planet and wildlife. the earths core itself is powered by rich fuels. anybody driving around in a v8 or suv without having a family should be arrested and fried/killed in the electric bench in virginia. there is no sense in destroying the planets fossel fuels and being a fat overweight slime blob at the sane time. as with 7 out of 10 v8 owners are overweight steak eaters that deserve hell anyway.
Who knows..maybe the new mustang will kill em both??
This guy is clearly an idiot look take from a car dealer this car is not doomed!!!
I guess you were WAY OFF BASE with this whole article….”FACT”, yea right.
I guess if you worked at a Chevy dealership, you’d find out just how wrong this story ever was.
Oh, and many Dodge people fed up with their dealership’s practices are now ready to go CHEVY. Better car, better built, better EVERYTHING!
Get ready to get bitten back.
These tires are ugly, the wheel wells are to big. I said i predicted that the challenger will out sell the camaro and it will: the v8 to v8 version of either car notwithstanding the v6 which dodge isnt making at the moment, but probably will. When it does I predict the v6 challenger will outsell the Camaro too.
The new camaro was designed after two models the 67 and 69 respectively. It is not a real retro anything: but a retro mishmash of ill defined design; and im sure the idiot who redesigned it knows that, and its because he as i said wanted to put his personal signature on it and today most cars have little to no imagination in body design unlike the days of Fisher who designed some real classics that stand the test of time;and because of that, its again why i said the re design of the 69 is featured in the ‘09 “retro” Camaro.
You forget the rules of design son, the Challenger may be longer and even taller, but the fact that the whole design is in perspective of itself, meaning not too much is out of line with uniformity, its why it is a better looking car. Methinks it is to large myself, and i said that in another blog you can google using Dodge Challenger + Vintage Vic. but the challenger gets it closer to the retro design and thus gets it more right while the Camaro does not.
The unsafe for the standards of muscle car tires, I dont really care what you say. just because as you parents said …your friend jumped off the bridge does it mean that you have to do it too? these tires are a trend not a retro design; and as i said sticker shock will cost you much more than the headache is worth replacing them. That could have been avoided.
When i used the expression i said the side is ‘mostly not used in photos’ I never said it is entirely eliminated. I knew what i was saying when i said it or would not have said it. so i repeat just about all the pics you see are from angular views with the photos not daring to tread on the side of the car.
Ummm hmm the design of the car doesnt matter to you ? LOL well Iguess im making my point clear with your assistance. it should matter if it is a classic muscle car,
paricularly if it is retro because retro must be carefully thought out not recklessly
designed from what ever stuck to the wall when it was thrown…
and what you re telling me is just my point, any schlock can me manufactured today with recklessness and it will sell. Im calling for manufacture quality of design in hopes that this ill regarded point is taken into consideration sometime down the road rather than being avoided as it currently is.
Yea I know that there will always be someone somewhere buying the car for its looks. Again you are making my point: what should matter doesnst matter because perspective of design was lost since the 60’s when the classics were designed; and they manufactures of just about anything know that if you throw enough of anything to a wall it will stick…with your assistance of course.
What you probably dont realize is that i am well WAS a Camaro fan but am not any more. I gave chevy many years to fix its mistakes in design and it never did; and particularily ruined the car from the ’80’s till the mid ’90’s. Needless to say i was very happy with the retro stang’s success because they got it and got it right for the most part.
You can nit pick me all day long and all blog long, i made my point and made it with clarity i think. That it would fall on deaf ears was already anticipated by me.
Classic body design needs to be re instated in the manufacture of muscle cars. if the Porsche can hold the same design for esentially 35 some years there is no reason why the twitchy US car manufacturers cant hold a classic design on a classic car and stop doing what they do; fall all over their insecurity of having to neccessitate a re design of a classic look because they fear lagging sales. But the issue is now they are stuck because consumers dont know any better and abet their neurosis.
Vintage Vic
Dude, listen, you can criticize a camero that it wunt suceed all you want, or w.e, BUT there will always be someone, somewhere, buying this car for itts looks. When this car comes out, its guna be one of the hottest looking cars on the market. and as for me..Yes id buy the car, who cares how much gas it consumes, because guess what, all automakers are always going to try and make cars to consume as less as possible, so either way, ure always most likely from now on that your going to get good gas consumption deals on most cars coming out in the future, regardless of the automaker. If your to poor to afford to pay for gas, go buy a cheap cheap 4 cylinder, take the transit or go bike. Stop making dumbass articles about cars being a failure, because people will always need cars, and slowly the cars are not guna need gas to run. And when people wna go buy a car they normally say whatever, il just get the V6 or whatever it comes with, because frankly, someone would rather pride themselves with the cool car their driving around, rather then how rich they are and that they can afford the high gas prices. this was a dumb article, GM promised the release of the caamaro, the movie transformers only helped spread GM’s advertising, and now i dont dounbt if it will be a big sucess.
Vintage Vic, you are just trying to impress yourself by arrogantly imposing your opinion on us. What makes you so important that you can come in here and disrespect all the rest of our opinions? It’s people like you that make the rest of us (the REAL enthusiasts) want to puke.
Vic, you have a serious lack of common sense, and it shows because it is blatantly obvious that you have not done any research on this car. You would rather spout off randomly than base anything on fact, I guess for the fear of fact coming back to bite you?
Well Vic, get ready to get bitten:
Since when does a consumer need an “understanding of design” to like a car? People like a car for any number of reasons. This new Camaro was the most well-received car put out by General Motors EVER in their 100-year history. Almost TWO MILLION people requested information on it.
So they show the best looking angles of the car. Really? You mean they’re practicing basic marketing? I’m pretty sure that every other car in existence is marketed too. By the way, Vic, take a look at the Camaro page on Chevy’s website. What’s that? Oh… it’s a side view, just like you said rarely exists.
“Three inches of rubber from rim to the floor is not safe”. Huh? Well whatever, that’s alright. Even the SS model with its 20-inch wheels has 4.2 inches of tire sidewall, and the base model with its 18-inch wheels has 5.2 inches.
You might wanna know that the guy who lead the design team of this car is Ed Welburn. Ed drives a 1969 Camaro to work almost every day, and has done so for years. So, oops – there goes another one of your arguments out the window.
Vic, you say the Camaro is too long to be a muscle car, I guess you’re forgetting that the Challenger is 7 inches longer.
In a previous comment, Vic, you say “GM willfully refused to hear its Camaro fan base”. You could not be more wrong. As a member of the Camaro Focus Group, I can attest to how enthusiast-injected this Camaro is. Every member on the Camaro Development Team is as enthusiastic about the car as I am, if not more so, and it shows with their attention to detail.
I’m willing to put my money where my mouth is, are you? With my arguments based on the facts, I predict the Camaro will easily and handily outsell the Challenger. In 3-4 years we’ll see who is right.
In one corner, we have the few imbeciles like the fact-ignoring Vintage Vic. In the other corner, we have almost two million Camaro fans. I’ll put my money on the two million, thank you very much.
Again guys: this car is butt ugerly. I’ve never seen a car design that was so all over the map like this one: just like those who’s taste is who like it.
Where do we start…hmm too wide of a front grill: a bumper to bumper smile that needs to be shortened. A fat ass end meeting an over thin elongated body, whats with the two mouths on the front of the car: the grills going in two different directions… ? instead of a straighter wider grill it has an overly thin grill looking like an upturned smile, on a fat car. It makes me think of a fat girl ugly girl smiling at you when she walks by with a milkshake in her hand.. Yea this is a classic example of American uniformity that cost American designed cars first place on the world market.
It’s way too long for a muscle car; looking from a side view, the front nose from the front tire to the front of the front bumper is too far in length; the wheel well is too wide: and the tires, too big: and round wheel wells ? LOL. it’s ass end needs a diet, and it was made that way to compensate for the mistake of the erroneous elongated re design.
You hadn’t noticed most of the shots of this car taken for promotional purposes are arial views? Angular views, and RARELY a side view because they know it looks ugly there;
photographers don’t go there much; and for good reason.
it looks as flat as a stage prop; the broad side of a barn.
These camera guys know what they are doing: they’re showing you the good side of the car from airial view and angles that you never see any car from. i suppose you are going to like the view of it that you get from your helicopter then. LOL.
What’s with those huge tires anyway? Why the need ? Obviously it looks as though they built the body around the tire size and screwed the design for doing that. The Camaro grew from a more stout muscular looking car to a (touring)? car that was born with a case of faulty genetic giantism,
Those large tires will cost you plenty more out of your pocket. OOPS, thoughtful huh? More money for Goodyear compliments of you. The tires need to be more standardized guys for practicality. Three inches of rubber from rim to the floor is not a safe tire either on a muscle car: i guess that was inspired from an Italian ten speed bike?
If you like it is is basically because you lack understanding of design.
The original ‘69 though simple is really a handsome car; its had its basic design written in its stout body style with straight lines; giving it the muscular look of a true and unique dream car that actually inspired the look of the re design of this new camaro.
It was the best looking Camaro: hands down and the idiot who designed it obviously wanted to put his personal stamp on it and said “screw you” to the fan base that made the ‘69 the best selling car of the 60’s Camaros. Hmm sounds like the GTO.
So just like what was done to the GTO is why I said this car is doomed. Maybe you like the goofy wedge design of the 80s shlock that they made for way too many years: ‘82 to what ‘93, because the wedge was as basic as a design could get without really having to try to use any imagination ?
Listen. the ’60’s muscle cars were the best in designed body styles…from the GTO the ‘Stang, the Chevelle…its why they are so sought after duuuh.
To sick this car on us and pretend it is based on a classic look is insulting to any collector or appreciator of classic cars.
So go ahead; predict they will be all over the highway, just like the twinkie looking wedges of the 80’s were: so what. LOL. So In turn, i predict that the challenger will outsell it.
Vintage Vic
Whoever says the Camaro is ugly obviously has something against it. Nobody in their right mind thinks this car is ugly. Just shut the hell up.
I don’t think the gas prices stop anybody from buying the car they really want. The people who want this car are the ones who have a lot of money anyways. I predict these cars will be all over the highways.
To make a point you can get decent gas miliage with a performance car. It has to be set up right and driven right for one. My 2007 Mustang GT gets 31 MPG on the autoban here in Germany at 80mph, with a cold air induction system and a computer programer set to econmy mode and running 6% more air that fuel. My 1996 BMW 325I that I had got 38MPG and could do over 150MPH all day long on the autoban. It is very possible to have a fun car and get decent gas milage.
The Ford Mustang will be getting an ECOboost engine – a V6 with twin turbos.
I hate to disappoint you, but the new Dodge Challenger is selling like hot cakes.
The 2009 Camaro will not be cancelled. Do not worry!
Vintage Vic:
I don’t agree with you at all. The Camaro isn’t ugly. It’s beautiful! If Chevrolet keeps the 6 cylinder priced in the low $20,0000 range, like they have said they will, the car will be a smash!
Ford Mustang will have to up the horse power on it’s V6, if it wants to keep up with this Camaro. The 6 cylinder Camaro has got over 300 horse power, and is reported to perform 0-60 mph in 6 seconds. Only thing I will add, is that American cars aren’t as good as foreign cars. Honda,Toyota and Nissan are way better quality, but they sure don’t look as good as this new Camaro.
Sorry guys this guy is right.
The Camaro is doomed like the z28 was doomed in ‘77 and when it went out of circulation for a 2nd time in its history.
The govt is slowly choking the car industry and the sports car industry till it achieves its goal of being on par with euro trash downsized cars and their mpg….giving you the least amt of gas for the most money that they can possibly get.
The American car manufacturers are told how to manufacture their cars by our gov’t who’s only goal is ultimate control of your life: wake up sluggards.
The new world order is readying you for gas lines and fuel shortages, and a recession in general so that it can downsize everything including automobiles quickly like FDR communized the US with the great depression.
The sports car is an endangered species; but only made so by govt. Eventually govt. wants you on mass transit, and you guys are sleeping.
During a depression and recession Govt. can act more quickly at implementing controls over your life in the name of national emergency; and it intends to do so.
The gas guzzler tax is designed as a supposed deterrent to keep people from buying sports cars. Most know better; and know that its just another govt design to take more money from you for lame reasons, with scare tactics attached to train you to get you used to more taxation and control.
The sports car industry is doomed at least till we get on par globally with our euro trash counterpart govt. who we are slowly modeling ourselves after in order to become another cog in the wheel of global sameness.
At that time then the govt will force car manufacturers to over price their sports cars exceedingly through their price and then tax them that on top of it.
Naturally only the rich will own and operate sports cars which is the ultimate game of monopoly which is the plan of our govt.
Wake up.
This new Camaro is ugly and anyone who idolizes it has taste up their family nut tree. This will further spell more doom on the already out of the door doomed car.
GM refused to listen to its customer base when they were asked to do a retro style on this car by Camaro fans, and it decided to re design a car that needed no redesign anyway. But it was perfect as it was…if not then the ‘69 body style would not have been used as the model to redo.
The reason for the success of the “retro” ‘Stang is that it was designed as closely as possible to a classic look. The new Camaro will not share that same success.
GM willfully refused to hear its Camaro fan base. Im sorry to say it will pay for that grandiose mistake and the price of cars thereafter will be priced higher to compensate for its failure to hear its fan base. This car will die as almost fast as the GTO. Too bad boneheads will have to learn the hard way.
This 55 yr. old will be buying one of these georgous Camaros!! I own a 77 Camaro that looks similar to the old one in the Transformers Movie……..in better shape of course. Maybe I’ll paint the old one the same as my new one. I owned a 1991 Red Convertable Z-28 and I miss the it!!! I love the rumble of all those horses under the hood!!!
Can’t wait for the 09!!!
You really should look up definition of a “recession” before you publish the lie that we are in one. Just because the majority of the media spouses a belief, doesnt’ make it so. The only recession we are in is a “media-induced” belief of a recession that is motivated by an election year. You should really consider a different line of work.
[...] minute the Camaro is doing good, the next it is being axed because of either the oil crisis or some poor decisions that are being made by [...]
You make some valid points. But, the most important thing of all is what the Camaro will sell for. How much will a standard 6 cylinder Camaro cost? I think if they keep the price down, of the 6 cylinder, to say…some where between $20,000-$21000, and give it decent horsepower, they could sell a lot of V6 Camaros. I know I would buy one for that price.
This car will be stuck on dealer lots like a hummer to pavement.
It has less appeal than the pathetic attempt of BMW to sell a twin turbo $50k 35mpg diesel in the US market, since most ‘mericans lambast diesels as still being sooty and getting less mpg than gas.
This Eric Peters obviousley has no idea why people would be all hot over the camaro as well they are on the Challenger. A lot of people buy cars based on their love of the automobile and just settling for a Honda Civic or Toyota Camry just will not due. We are willing to pay the extra bucks to drive the car around, and lets face it, if the Camaro is getting within 5 to 10 miles a gallon of some sub compact piece of crappola, how much more is that really everytime you fill up, 10 to 15 bucks. Well worth it to drive a car like this. Just quit the Starbuck runs everyday and you will be way ahead.
This guy is a douchebag. FACTS are statements based on realities. This guy definitely doesn’t work for GM and therefore has no idea what they’re thinking as far as the car is concerned. To some of the other people who have posted replies: nobody knows how much the car weighs yet. Nobody knows which engine will be available. GM has not realeased any official information about the car so stop acting like you know what you’re talking about. As far as CAFE goes, by 2020 the world will be a different place. The “regulations” that will be implemented in that time will have no effect on a car that’s coming out 11 years before then.
Eric Peters is a fool.
The retro-styled ‘09 Camaro will sell regardless of gas prices! It is an affordable American sportscar symbol and the $$$ are available to purchase it, even if that means $5+ a gallon for petrol. The Hummer is quite indicative of what I mean. And that tank as well as the swelling SUV line have sold plenty! The consumer just skimps on the other things, but not on status symbols! At least not much…
Supposedly he’s stating: “No bull; not my opinion. Just facts.”
Well, I’d like to see the sources of these “facts.” I wouldn’t be surprised if they don’t exist.
O.K. I’m no dummie but this is how I feel. 1) If people buy it–they’ll make it. 2) Some folks are dedicated to “their” type of car. 3) Alot of people complain of this and that but won’t follow through with their complaints. It’s time for “THE PEOPLE” to stand up and be heard
I don’t care what crappy gas mileage it gets, there will be one of these parked in my garage if/when GM sells them. Right now I drive a “sensible”, paid off Civic as a commuter car, so a Camaro would be a weekender, fun ride to cruise around in.
To make the high gas prices out to be the real monster is just irresponsible. The rest of the work sitll pays another $2 or more for gas, so I would say we shouldn’t be complaining.
Maybe if all of the products we buy we still made in America instead of everywhere else, or we had a crackdown on illegal employment in this country, or our government didn’t subsidize the oil industry with our tax dollars on top of what we pay at the pump, or if we had I better approach to a war that is going to cost multiple times what we were told, we would have a more buying power as a whole and could afford the higher gas prices.
And there is no reason that auto companies can’t produce engines that are alot more fuel efficient, while still producing the same power we are accustomed to. The technology is there, but our auto executives are just too lazy and cheap. They don’t want to lose their high pay whatsoever, even if it means cutting thousands of jobs, and making CHEAP cars.
All of these recent developments could have been, and probably were predicted. We have turned into a country that when faced with a problem, instead of getting to the root of it and solving it the right way, we make knee jerk reactions placing “band-aids” on the problem. We don’t fix it, we put it off onto future generations. Think about our sky rocketing debt to China, who is going to pay that off. Not these current politicians or business executives who make these stupid decisions, but our children and grandchildren.
If you cant afford the gas you need to get to work, think about working closer to where you live or vice versa, think about a bike or public transportation. Just think about the decisions that you make, and don’t just listen to the talking heads, because they are just puppets for the same people that are bankrupting our country.
If this guy is so big on facts, he sure missed some big ones:
1. As stated previously by other comments, CAFE is AVERAGE fuel economy. Not every vehicle needs to be above the line. On the grand schema, Camaro is a relatively low volume vehicle, even at the projected 100,000 per year. So even if it’s below the line, it won’t hurt the average much.
2. He thinks the target market for Camaro is the 18-25 year olds. While that may be a significant piece of V6 buyers, it’s not at all true for the V8 buyers. In the 4th Generation (1993-2002), the average Camaro buyer was 41 years old.
3. He thinks it’s impossible for a RWD V8 car to get 30mpg. I drive a 2001 Camaro Z28 that’s modified, and I have some gas receipts he should see. Sure the new one is heavier (mostly due to safety requirements) but it’ll still get respectable gas mileage.
4. Since the Camaro launches in spring 2009, it’s a 2010 model.
5. The 35mpg requirement comes in to effect in 2020, not 2012.
Sounds like this guy writes the same article over and over. Here it is 2 years ago about the 07 camaro with different reasons.
http://www.opinionjournal.com/federation/feature/?id=110008543
I guess I will be restoring and builing street motors with NOS to get what I want but in away I have to say thank you republicans for driving up the price of oil and for sticking you noses in our personal lives yet again. An other republican presidant? yeah right. And by the way. Just my opinion but the new camero like the challenger and the mustangs are retro to the old muscle cars that they were based on. true the new ones are a bit heavier but I am so sick of looking at wedge cars like the 4th gen camero and trans ams that sort of look like a vette that some one stepped on. Every little economy forien car looks just like it.
GM will freak out and kill it. OR, worse (and even more typical), they will run it for 1-2 years, then kill it. This is just their nature. The thing is already ugly as sin and is going to weigh over 4000 lbs, so let it die. I loved the 4th gen Camaro, but the new one is 800 lbs heavier and beyond freaking ugly. I hate Fords but the Mustang is the most attractive of the three “muscle cars.” Thanks, I’ll take an AWD Subaru WRX anyway… more practical, better on gas, and HALF the price of what the new Camaro will cost.
To George first off I apologize for the caps lock I am haveing trouble with my left hand and it frequently rests on the keyboard to answer your question I have tested the gas mileage on the highway at several different speeds at 50 mph I get 26.2 mpg at 68mph I get 28.8 mpg at 72 mph I get 31.3 mpg and then at 75 mph it drops down to 29.7 mph all done with cruise control on and on factory recommended premium fuel so the peak gas mileage with car seems to be at 72 mph and only if you use the cruise control I do not get this kind of gas mileage useing my foot and the city gas mileage was only 17mpg I did manage to bump up the city gas mileage to 19 mpg when I switched to synthetic motor oil in the engine and the average gas mileage between highway and city is around 26mpg I put regular fuel in this car only once it was only $4.00 cheaper to fill the tank and the gas mileage droped from a 26 mpg average to only 19mpg but getting back to the subject of the Camaro GM is looking into combineing this V8 with cylinder deactivation into a hybrid electric drive GM says it will get 32mpg and have 400hp.
[...] Motorists.org. If you have a 1968 AMC Javelin or AMX in the barn, it might be worth hanging on to. Filed under: business by — Dave @ 7:39 am [...]
Tony, please, the caps lock.
Also how slowly do you drive & do you use the GM recommended premium fuel in the LS4?
The cylinder shutoff system only works on one set of four cylinders. GM’s their idling system currently is not capable of running on four cylinder indefinitely, i.e. it can not run on the first group four cylinder for 30 seconds & then switch to the other four cylinders for 30 seconds.
In the near term, GM could combine the large bore of the 3.6 V6 (94mm) and utilize the short crankshaft stroke of the 2.8 V6 (74.8mm) resulting in an oversquare 250hp 3.1 liter V6. Chevrolet could couple that to their 6L45 6 speed automatic or TR6060 6 speed manual transmission.
That combination would be fun, but would not rate at an uncorrected 35mpg, so by 2012 a smaller engine would be needed.
[...] of one automotive columnist Eric Peters.His opinion on the Camaro is all over the internet. Why The 2009 Camaro Is Doomed Make sure to read all the replies on that blog. I look at it this way….I’m a very simple [...]
your so stupid…….i cant believe you still have a job. lol
Lol@above. Why am I not surprised that a person who would buy a FWD V8 also does not know how to use the caps lock key. Or spell ‘Camaro’ for that matter.
WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT KIND OF BREAKTHROUGHS IN TECHNOLGY THEY ARE GOING TO MAKE BETWEEN NOW AND THE YEAR 2020 ALSO TO MY UNDERSTANDING THE V8 VERSION OF THE CAMERO WILL BE ABLE TO SHUT OFF 4 OF ITS CYLINDERS LIKE MY PONTIAC GXP DOES THAT IS WHY I GET 30MPG WITH MY 303HP V8.
How about some thought to a fiberglass hood, trunk, roof, aluminum (too pricey) There is an awful lot of used plastic bottles and aluminum beer cans laying around this country!
I had a lot of fun with my 6 cylinder 65 and 69 Mustang.
No, he is right, but for the wrong reasons.
The CAFE is not based off window stickers (even the newly reduced ones for ‘08 model year), but off the uncorrected numbers.
The loophole for E70-E85 fueled vehicles is likely to be closed before the 35mpg fleet average is implemented.
So, to sell a Camaro in the realities of $5-6 a gallon gasoline, the highest performance Camaro that GM could sell would be a 300hp direct injection 3.6 V6 hybrid model.
But the powers that be haven’t reached a target price of oil at $200 a barrel, and GM is committed to producing the Camaro, so the Camaro will come out.
This is why blogs are useless. Misinformation and the idiots that spread it. If you don’t know shit about shit, don’t say shit.
The new Camaro is spun of the G8/Commodore platform in exactly the same way the Challenger is spun of the Charger. You need to do a little more research before you post a blog.
How in the bloody hell are you an automotive columnist? You are an idiot. CAFE is Corporate Average Fuel Economy, and it is not a REQUIREMENT but rather a TARGET for the automakers ENTIRE LINEUP, not just a SINGLE CAR. If automakers do not reach CAFE req’s they will be subject to some sort of fee/tax. Also, if the Camaro LSx is anything like the current or previous gen LSx motors, it will have a very respectable mid to high 20’s of highway mileage with a manual transmission, which should be easily offset by the new MPG oriented Cobalts, G5s, and Astras that GM is churning out. Let’s also not forget that CAFE mpg is calculated differently than EPA (window sticker) mpg, with CAFE being higher. Jesus, Mary, and Joseph, by your logic, automakers like Porsche will no longer have a lineup at all! I hope this isn’t your day job.
You are an idiot. Tell us, what do the C and A of CAFE stand for?
The 28 and upcoming 35 mpg CAFE standards are AVERAGES across an entire manufacturer, not minimums that every model must meet, as you state in your article. Why don’t you brush up on fuel economy laws and get back to us.