By ROBERT HORSTMEIER on May 1, 2008

I am 76 years old and the safest drivers my age were kids that were permitted to drive on wet grass and do spins and loops and controlled skids. On ice they were the safest drivers.
On I94 north of Tohma WI south bound before dinner each day a trooper drives south to Tohma with 3 to 4 miles of cars and trucks 3 foot apart. A giant accident looking for a place to happen…..

By Joe on Feb 23, 2008

Ima Safedriver, kinda been there, done that. 15 or so years ago I was the prime instigator in getting a citizens police commission started in my town. Unfortunately the commission was established by outgoing council members and the newly elected one’s wouldn’t support us by not nominating replacement members when a member could no longer serve or quit. We lasted about six interesting months before we lost our quorum. One of our intentions was to provide a interface between the citizens and the police. I always thought that some of this ill feeling could be reduced by better communication between the two parties. I still believe that.

I’ve been a NMA member for many years. So on a couple occasions in the past I’ve had my name and address circulated around to state members, with only luke warm reception. If you can’t get members of your own organization, who’s supposed to be interested in this stuff, interested then who in hell can you get! I also managed to get a bill on traffic ticket quota’s introduced into the state house. The meager excuse they used to reject it, was obvious what happened. The Municipal League squished it like a bug. I’ve been told by several legislators that the Municipal League has been responsible for traffic reform failures in the past. So, I’ve come to appreciate them about as much as NHTSA. I believe nearly every state has a Municipal League which is a little known group in our state. They swing an enormous amount of weight in the state legislature. It should be no surprise that they spend a good part of their time interfacing with state and federal policy makers. If you mention Municipal League to the average citizen, they’ve never heard of them. This group runs a stealth operation to be sure. And then to top that off we have sections of the state that have their own local district councils. In the northeastern part of Oklahoma we have INCOG (Indian Nations Council of Governments). While it is not their sole function, again they also have a lobbying arm of their organization. I won’t mention the LEO organizations that also play a part. The vast majority of citizens don’t realize the number and sophistication of these groups. It’s only over time that I’ve learned about them. Most of the laws that allow the municipal coffers to grow with revenue were passed years if not decades ago. Municipalities have just learned how to exploit them better. As you well know, advances in technology has only worsened the problem for the driving public while improved the situation for municipalities.

Again James is quite correct when he states that the implementation of the 55 mph NMSL probably taught many municipalities the value of a aggressive traffic control program. Thanks Pres. Nixon….you crook. That’s particularly true of smaller municipalities. We know for a fact that there are small municipalities that exist economically solely on traffic citations, mostly speeding tickets. Further, in smaller, poorer, rural municipalities law enforcement may provide additional jobs which can have an impact on the unemployment rate. Some of these communities lie near major state and Interstate thoughfares. Many years ago they almost dried up and disappeared when they were bypassed by the Interstate system. Then they discovered they could reaching out and annex these “pots of gold”. Now the city coffers have never been in better shape. Even larger municipalities have discovered that revenue from traffic citations are a nice little addition to their budget. As you well know, although technology has made our vehicles safer it has equally played an increasing role in catching drivers, especially speeding. So, as I reiterate, at least in this state the wrong laws are being enforced for the wrong reasons. It’s undeniable.

How we have arrived at this juncture probably would be a good subject for a book. But the direction we’ve allowed government to take pertaining to traffic control violates some of the basic premises of honesty and integrity in government. We’ve gone to great lengths in this country to keep money out of our justice system. We’ve gone to great lengths in this county to keep conflicts of interest out of our justice system. We know historically that both these forces lead to corruption. While we completely and aggressively reject these forces under any other circumstance, we’ve allowed governments to embrace them. You could expect this in a third world county but in the good ‘ole USA? How we’ve allowed this to happen I believe is a perfect example of citizens (driving public) staying out of the process and we’re paying for it now….literally.

As for speed traps and talking to the LEO bosses, they’ve got a quota to meet. I doubt that a single citizen will change that. I used be on a first name basis with some of the council members in my town. In fact the mayor was booted out of office by a rogue group that managed to get elected. My neighbor and I run a guy from our addition for council member (he won). The former mayor was running to regain his council seat so we kinda ran the two together when we placed signs and did door to door campaigning. He and the city manager also got kicked out because this rogue group didn’t like him either. At that time both of them told several of us about police abuse in our town…..this coming straight from people in the know! Ya, I’ve dabbled and rubbed elbows with politicians a little. I’ve seen how police activity can get distorted by the zest for revenue and my town is not NEAR as bad as many others we have in this state as James has eluded to many times. I will say however that the police as well as the town has matured a lot in recent years due to a healthy dose of growth.

I few years ago I noted the local police running a speed trap on a pretty regular basis in this one hiding spot along a road not far from my residence. So I decide to see what was behind it. Give it a fair assessment and see if in fact there was really a basis for this aggressive enforcement. I contacted the county engineer who printed out the records from the DPS computer database, for the four mile section of road in question. Even I was surprised. The 60 or so records that I received, I believe something like only 3 accidents were attributed to actual speeding (moving beyond the posted speed limit). Most were intersection accidents, a few driving to fast for conditions and some for weather. This small percentage of accidents caused by actual speeding seems to hold true with more recent statistics from other states. Oh, and I’m sure we have no Community Traffic Safety Team.

I’ve looked at traffic control for the better part of 30 years. James claims closer to 50. I used to read police magazines at the local library. I have several piles of cut outs and excepts from all kinds of print media from over the years about traffic control. The Internet and use of files have made physical piles of paper obsolete. Some of us are NOT talking out the sides of our mouth as some claim. None of us may have it exactly right but collectively I believe we get damn close. Speaking of name calling; a guy who is passing himself as a former LEO, I direct you to; http://www.motorists.org/blog/speed-traps/the-worst-speed-trap-cities-in-the-united-states/ and a guy posting as Gail Minks on Feb 22, 2008. Just as a boxer starts grasping for punches when he starts losing the fight so it is that when a poster starts losing a debate they start calling names.

By Ima Safedriver on Feb 22, 2008

Oh yeah, AAA! We have a big AAA office in our city. The AAA employees are the biggest violators of the laws. They speed, the run stop signs, follow too close, etc. One day I stopped a big wig for 20 over in a 35! LOL! I told him that it was kind of odd that the nations advocate for safe driving was the biggest cause of crashes and traffic violations on this roadway. Well, a week later, people seemed to be driving a WHOLE lot better! LOL! I guess some e-mails went flying! LOL!! Funny story!

By Ima Safedriver on Feb 22, 2008

Well Joe, with all that’s been said, in the end I think I can agree with most it. I especially can agree on the point of education and knowledge of your government and what they are doing. Speak up! That’s what I say! I can tell you that if you have a problem with a “speed trap”, go talk to the bosses (Chief/Sheriff or whatever). Express your concerns over the “issue”. Bring up traffic crash numbers in that area and find out if the enforcement supports the cause. You might find out that there has been several crashes there or just the opposite.

I had a former motor partner that would do speed enforcement on a roadway that we had seen few if any crashes there. I mentioned that in casual conversation to my boss one day and we looked into the numbers. There weren’t too many reasons to devote as much time as he did there. So see, there are traffic cops on your side, you just didn’t know it.

I think my biggest issue is that, which obviously you agree with me on, there is no reasonable way we can do away with speed limits. Raise them, yeah, sh-tcan them, no way! As far as the education part goes, we do a lot for our community. The sheriff’s office has an aggressive driving program. They do speeches at the high schools and they even bring out a crashed car on a trailer to show the kids how “street racing” can really end. The car came from a family that lost their child in a stupid act. The kid was a good kid, he just a made a stupid kid mistake that ended in the loss of four innocent lives. As far as me, I do take them time to speak with people and I treat people the way I would want someone to treat my elderly parents. I don’t belittle people and I explain the reason for me doing my job. For the most part, people listen and understand, however some are just name calling a-sholes!

In fact just the other day, on the day that my supervisor was doing my yearly evaluation, I received a letter from a driver I stopped for a red light violation. The driver was totally impressed that I took the time to speak to him about the danger he placed himself in. You see, he stopped near the light but past the stop bar, well past the stop bar, and out into the big intersection. He was on the phone at the time and didn’t realize he was out so far that he was blocking another lane. I asked him what would have happened if another inattentive driver had happened through that same intersection just then. In the end he understood the reason for my efforts to reduce crashes, thereby reducing injuries and saving insurance rates.

Find out if your community has a Community Traffic Safety Team, if they do, then join, if they don’t, recommend that they start one, then join. All I ask, is that you don’t stereotype us. I think it’s always been odd that people who accuse the cops of stereotyping typically stereotype the cops. Go figure??

By Joe on Feb 22, 2008

Again James is right on. Ima Safedriver, you must live on another planet. I could better tolerate your enforcement tolerances. I’m a reasonable person and you make some good points. You seem to be leaning ever so slightly in the right direction of reasonableness. That’s what I’m asking for. That is definitely NOT what we experience in these parts as James so eluded too. Your breathern around here have corrupted the image of law enforcement big time. They’ve made a mockery of traffic control. That’s why I believe the way I do. You need to keep in mind that we are experiencing what appears to be a completely different environment then you. Parts of my posts may not exactly apply to your situation.

Further, you may have me mixed up with someone else using the term Nazi or other similar terms for LEO’s. I try to limit my name calling of LEO’s because it’s not very constructive. In my case I like the word “resent” better then hate. I have been known to use the term Nazi towards NHTSA, MADD and a variety of similar agencies because it’s the strongest word I can think of without resorting to common four letter words, you know what I mean. I make no apologies for that. That’s exactly what they are. I watch them in front of congress giving their spin for tougher enforcement and more laws. They spin the data the way it suits them. I watch until I get nauseated. MADD isn’t any better. NHTSA feeds at the public trough so naturally they suggest this garbage to justify their existence. NHTSA is a government agency that we could certainly close. We have too many agencies and organizations that have nothing better to do then set around thinking up more ways to engage law enforcement and the driving public…with the drivers coming up on the usual short end. Primarily because of speed enforcement, we can’t even get the laws already on the books, that ACTUALLY affect the accident rate, enforced. It’s crazy. Sometimes I have to pinch myself to see if this is a fairytale but then the red flashing lights awaken me to reality.

Also your getting Mr. Young and I mixed up so I need to clarify. He suggests no speed limits, not me. I know what he speaks of and in theory I agree but I can’t see it under current circumstances. It’s too problematic. I’m sure he and I could handle it quite handily. I know many other mature drivers that could also handle the lack of speed limits. But from my perspective, we still have too many drivers out there for a whole variety of reasons that could not handle the absence of speed limits. In Germany where there are roads with no speed limits, I assure you they don’t get their drivers license out of a box of Post Toasties like around here. The German mentality of excellence is applied to driving as well. But I totally agree that drivers should focus on driving as conditions permit. I don’t want to speak for him but I believe that’s the jest of My. Youngs message. Unfortunately, the obsession with speed limits around here, drivers get the idea that as long as they stay within the speed limit, they can do anything they want without consequences. It’s counterintuitive to tell drivers you should drive according to conditions and the turn around and add….until you move beyond the velocity of those 2 numbers on a sign. A sign that some traffic engineer in his ivory tower catering to non pragmatic principles has set. Or worse, some speed limits are set by local municipal city councils, by a show of hands. I’ve seen it.

Hell, we don’t even have a decent drivers education program in this state of Oklahoma. My opinion is that for Mr. Youngs idea of no speed limits to bare fruit, we must train young drivers to drive properly, preferably professionally. It’s gotta be embedded in they’re malleable brain. It’ll probably takes a couple years to do this in High School if we are serious about traffic safety. All these young drivers have a life time of driving ahead of them. Ima Safedriver, you above all people, should realize the value of this. These young drivers will be your “clients” for many years to come, until you retire and beyond and then they become some other cops clients. Why wouldn’t you want them to have the best we can offer. But believe it or not, drivers training doesn’t seem to be supported, to any great extent, in this state by LEO’s. A few years ago the AAA had a bill introduced in the state legislature that would have boosted funding for drivers education. It saw little support from law enforcement. I’m still scratching my head on that one. Consequently, the bill which did get signed by the governor, was a mere shadow of it’s original self.

I work on a large maintenance base for a major air carrier. James you know. We have over 7,000 employed there. I obviously don’t know everybody but over the 25 years I’ve gotten to know many good, intelligent workers and leaders. Leaders and co-workers who I’ve looked up to because of their pristine creditably. Some with a uncanny ability for the practical. Union, non-union doesn’t make any difference. After working closely for years with these people, traffic control eventually enters a conversation. Probably 9 out of 10 of these people resent LEO’s, some worse then I, because of what they view as traffic control excesses….abuses.
We are defiantly not kids anymore. Many of us are now looking to retirement. James and I are in our early ’60s. I know a 80+ year old in near Stringtown, OK who has been a bulldog on speed traps. He’s a WWII vet, a former maritime mariner, truck driver. A guy with a wealth of worldly experience. He knows speed traps, he lives near several small towns with a BIG speed trap reputation as James so eluded too. So it beckons the question; why do all these people resent LEO’s in this state? One of my co-workers is a lifelong bachelor in mid ’50’s who is a avid conservative, wouldn’t miss a Russ Limbach show and watches Fox news shows. A guy who would NEVER normally break a law….but he does drive over the speed limit, according to conditions, as I do. Many of us are Vietnam era veterans. All these people are mature, intelligent (we have to be for our jobs) individuals. Can you please tell me why nearly ALL these good people resent traffic enforcement? I have a sense that not all these good people can be wrong. I know the next question your going to ask? I’ve asked it myself many times. Why aren’t these good people out there trying to get the laws changed.

A book could probably be written about this but, to some extent, I believe it’s the old adage “you can’t fight city hall”. I also believe it’s part of a bigger problem which seems to be getting worse. Citizens have decided to put their government on autopilot and let it run on it’s own accord without any guidance from it’s citizens. It’s a dead end because a working, vigorous democracy REQUIRES citizens to play an important part. Hell, on a good presidential election your lucky to get a 50 percent turnout (we might this year). And then it goes down hill from there. I’ve never believed it enough just to go vote. These public officials NEED our input. Have you ever pulled a Jay Leno “street walking” and asked the average citizen who their state senator or representative is? I think you know what I’m talking about. How in the hell are you going to participate when you don’t even know who your public officials are? Did we quit teaching civics and history in our public education system? How can people (citizens) participate when they don’t even understand the inner workings of their government? It shouldn’t surprise anybody why traffic enforcement has deteriorated to the level we see it today. Because of our lack of participation there’s a whole community of yes, traffic safety Nazis, out there singing for more and more enforcement, new laws, and the application of new technology. So, it’s a hell’va sad situation. I guess what I’m saying is that the blame for this sad mess doesn’t lie solely on law enforcement. I’m as upset at the driving public as I am at law enforcement.
But, some of us just won’t buy into the hopelessness of it. If everyday I drive to work I wasn’t constantly reminded of the absurdity of the situation, which keeps my dandruff continuously stirred up. None of us were born resenting law enforcement, we learned “under fire” so-to-speak. We became this way because of what’s going on out on our streets and highways that defy logic of any kind. You may write us off (James, I and others who debate this) as larks but ….we are not going away. We would be negligent as good citizens if we did.

By James Young on Feb 20, 2008

{As far as common scene is applied, I don’t know of too many professional LE agencies that are stopping drivers for doing 5 over.}

There are enough “amateur” agencies out there who do stop for anything over. Remember, those non-trained, non-POST-certified, non-HS graduates have just as much authority as you do to extract money from motorists, which is their job. Many of them – Big Cabin, Stingtown, Caney, Moffitt, Luther, Hulbert, e.g., — do no other law enforcement at all, leaving it for the county sheriffs.

By Ima Safedriver on Feb 20, 2008

As far as common scene is applied, I don’t know of too many professional LE agencies that are stopping drivers for doing 5 over. I know that we damn sure don’t! When we do speed enforcement we usually start at 15 and that’s been a “rule of thumb” by most. As far the issue of speeding cops. That really drives me nuts too! Keep this one in mind though guys. Many times blue lights and sirens cause drivers to DWHUA in front of us. They completely forget to move over or even stop for that matter ending with us trying to out break somebody talking on their cell phone so that I can make that right turn at the next intersection!! BTW, do you two yield to emergency vehicles by stopping or do you just “slow down” or just “move over”? So many times, it’s much easier to “just step on it”, not to mention in hold-up type alarms it’s not a good idea to run with the siren so that you don’t alert the bad guys that “Here we come!!”. Also, most patrol cops get paid by the hour, so whether we responded to 1 call or 50, it really doesn’t matter what we did, so if you see a cop speeding, he’s probably heading to fix some dumbasses mistake for the third time this week!

Recently, on another forum, an officer from Colorado (I think) said his SOP’s prohibited from driving at the posted speed limit on highways. All of us let him know how stupid that was and he promised to take the postings back to his admin. He said that they didn’t want their officers “leading a parade” down the highway.

In the end, I think we can agree on one thing, much differently I would say that for sure (LOL). That being, we do want the roadways to be safer for all who use them. I agree that all the lane changes make things treacherous and that having a structure of lane discipline is WAY safer. BUT!! Can I assume that both Joe and Mr. Young are mature adults and that your behavior with “no speed limits” would be that of a “mature responsible adult”. Need I remind you that we let the stupid and teenagers drive in this country? Telling some testosterone driven 17 year old, with girlfriend in tote, driving his Roush Mustang that way too rich mommy and daddy bought him as his first car at 16, to be responsible is tantamount to telling Osama Bin Laden to be rational! LOL!

You, having no speed limit at 11 pm on a rainy night on some poorly lite curvy mountain road, would be doing 50 or 55, something very rational. The dumbass, the standard client, is doing 95 because he just finished this statement to his buddy, “Hey, watch this!”.

Remember, what you guys are forgetting is that’s what we as LE have to deal with 95% of the time. If everyday, every time you dealt with a “client”, you had to deal with stereotypical biases that they have about you, (AND YEAH! DAMN IT! If I hear one more F’n Dunkin’ Donut joke! Some of which you two took part in with the Nazi type comments, etc.) you’d have a much more callused view of society too. Remember that every one hates the cops, until you need us! North Hollywood shoot out ring a bell? How many SOB’s were on that scene that day? How glued to the set were you waiting to catch some horrible glimpse of reality? No one ever calls us up to tell us that they’ve had a great day! They call us to tell us that they left their pocketbook sitting on the front seat of their convertible, with top down I might add, while they parked in the FIRE ZONE so that they could pick up their dry cleaning, and some bad man must have taken my handbag! Then they get pissed at us when we look less than interested because we didn’t “call out the dragnet” to unlawfully search every black male within a 20 block radius. Need I say more?

In the end, even after all those horrible insults, the cop that writes you a ticket today, WITHOUT QUESTION!!!, would risk his life by running into a hail of machine gun fire to save YOU tomorrow! For that, we get called NAZI! PIG! RACIST! MOTHER F’er! Who cares if a cop dies?? Meanwhile, a spouse, a child, a parent or a sibling sure does!

By Joe on Feb 20, 2008

Once again James is right on; I see his point but it takes some extended thinking to see it. I’m a little more practical. I’m not advocating the abolishment of all speed limits, as nice as that would be. For the time being, I would just like to see some common sense (I know that’s a relative term) and flexibility from you guys (cops) in enforcement of speed limits. I believe as a practical matter perhaps 10 to 15 over (providing a driver is following all the other rules). Speed limits should be more for reference. One size fits all speed limits just don’t get it, especially on a multi-lane road there’s no need for it. Leave the better drivers alone and catch the truly dangerous ones.

I will be leaving for work this afternoon (probably right after this post) and I can assure you, there will be a zillion drivers on our 6 lane expressway heading North, (Hwy 169, for your reference James) no enforcement of laws that would prevent rear end collisions. Left lane hogs will be blocking and upsetting lane discipline therefore upsetting the smooth flow of traffic. Drivers trying to get around these self centered individuals. As any LEO should know that’s dangerous because of all the lane changes. A road rage incident is always a possibility too. Pretty much like driving in a zoo.
There will most likely be a unmarked vehicle out there writing speeding tickets for 5 to 10 over. Then, like yesterday, there was a state trooper which passed me about 80 mph (65 zone), no lights, no siren. Didn’t appear to otherwise be in a hurry. It’s common around here. We’ve got to get the cops around here to set an example. That would be a good start. I’m certainly not the only one around here seeing the problem; read http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7654&whichpage=1
For now, gotta go to work.

By James Young on Feb 20, 2008

{[Speeding] as of now, is a law that I am tasked to enforce.}

The issue is the psychotic obsession with speeding to the virtual exclusion of other code sections, at least until you need them or they are secondary or tertiary (pronounced “piling on”). It is nigh on impossible to determine the distribution of citations by code section because such information is treated as proprietary by the agencies and any citizen who asks to see a public record must have criminal intent.

However, in 2002(?) the Texas DPS had to respond to a federal court regarding racial profiling and in their report disclosed that the DPS had written just over 1,000,000 speeding citations the test (prior?) year. All other violations combined were ~475,000. In harsher terms, speed too fast for conditions is responsible for something less than 10% of all crashes, yet consumes 67% of enforcement effort. What a waste of public resources.

{ . . .to deliver the horrible notice death message to someone who loved that driver. It would happen. Whether you choose to think that or not, and I’m not referring to a raised limit, but NO speed limits.}

Crashes are going to happen but we are getting quite good at reducing their frequency and their severity. Speed limits do not and cannot affect this frequency but that is something that the enforcement world just refuses to recognize.

Since we have ruled out efficacy as an explanation for this behavior, it once again drives us right back to the best remaining explanation, the factor that correlates more closely than anything else: $100 billion a year in fines.

By Barb on Feb 20, 2008

Use your spell checkers people. And proofread your comments. If you want to make a point it will be better received if written correctly. Ask yourselves if your driving is as sloppy as your commentary.

By Ima Safedriver on Feb 20, 2008

I have no more of a fascination with speed enforcement that you do with childporn (Joe). It, as of now, is a law that I am tasked to enforce. That’s all! I still think it is a foolish idea to do away with all limits however. If tomorrow, I went to work and the bosses said, “No more speeding tickets, let them drive what ever speed they want.” I would just go about my day writing tickets for the same ol’ things I usually do. My THI kit would be at the ready and with the self assurance, from my beliefs, to deliver the horrible notice death message to someone who loved that driver. It would happen. Whether you choose to think that or not, and I’m not referring to a raised limit, but NO speed limits. Also, I’m aware of your report, a lot of it is interesting but based from data years prior. A lot has changed since then…

By Joe on Feb 20, 2008

Look out James, there’re ganging up on you. I’m just seting back here shaking my head. This fascination they have about speed enforcement. Just like the ones we have around here. I’m not sure why this debate continues. I’m not seeing anyone change their mind…..at all, even just a little so they must be real cops. I see all the other laws avoided to enforce speed limits. My co-workers and I talk about it often. We compare notes. We all see the same insaneness.

By James Young on Feb 19, 2008

I’m in favor of rational laws that promote safe and easy driving. I’m opposed to stupidity and the use of the law to generate cash by criminalizing reasonable behavior.

Driving 37 mph on a highway is tantamount to suicide. It, like 85 mph on ice, is inappropriate. Driving 20 mph slower than the prevailing flow — as I saw on Saturday on my way to Mexico — is stupid. LE should concentrate on isolating and correcting inappropriate behavior rather than seeking out and punishing reasonable behavior.

As to the group of LE and engineers, I direct you to a report known as the MacFarland Report (IIRC), from Harvard College (now university) School of Public Health, circa 1954. It is out of print and extremely hard to find but well worth the effort.

By Ima Safedriver on Feb 19, 2008

Mr. Young. Today I stopped a driver for an unlawful speed. She was doing 37 mph (posted 65) in the #4 lane (far right) and subsequently she was issued a ticket. Should she have received a citation? Remember, you want to do away with speed limits! She violated a limit, this time it just happened to be the minimum. BTW, I too agree with the bad cops and professional training statement of yours. I consider myself a very disciplined professional, and aside from the ribbing, which obviously you can’t take, I’m seriously offended by your implication that somehow, because I disagree with YOUR logic, that I’m obviously a “bad cop”. Same goes for you Joe, we might have disagreed, but I never insulted you as a person, just your logic. So, if by some chance you were successful in abolishing our nations speed limits, I pretty sure my job would carry on. Drivers would still be doing stupid things and people like you would try to find ways to defend those stupid actions. Attorneys try weekly, so really it’s nothing new. So, as frustrated as you might be, one day when, if by chance, some OTHER “bad” driver runs into you, a professional, like me, will arrive to help sort out that mess.

Smile! I will gladly continue in my efforts to help gather the attention of those who aren’t pay attention. Either way is fine with me, speed limits or not. BTW, your smug remarks didn’t hurt my feelings, I’ve been called a lot worse by people who are a lot worse than you, REALLY! Maybe, one day we might meet, and I would harbor no ill will. I would just do my job and I will do it professionally, whether you would agree with it or not. Remember, we don’t make the rules, we just enforce them, no matter what they might be. BTW While you’re working on getting ride of those pesky speed limits, would mind to get a rider on that bill? One that says we can smack people who are smartasses to us. You see, that’s unlawful for us to do, but I still manage to enforce rules that I may not agree with either….LOL!!

:) I got your blood boiling didn’t I? :)

On a serious note, no ribbing, I work with a group (law enforcement and engineers working together to make our roads safer) within our county that visits high traffic crash areas to review whether or not the scene created the hazard or was it the drivers involved. Recently, we’ve been working on an offramp that had 32 crashes there. We’re not sure of what the TRUE causes might have been. We’ve even tried to recreate some of those crashes. RULE. Never rule out the shear ability of a dumba-s to succeed in their goals. Also, the DOT also just “fixed” one of our high crash area off ramp intersections. The private engineering company who designed it didn’t do the math correctly in developing the proper radius for vehicles to negotiate to curve. Your’s truly found the error! I know, I’m just some stupid cop! In my mindless wondering from the local donut shop, how could I have figured out a complicated mathematical equation? I ain’t be too sure….LOL!

By James Young on Feb 19, 2008

I deal with cars because they are the dominant form of motorized transportation and toward which we should direct our policy initiatives and they are a medium that readers can understand and relate to. We do not need to dilute our efforts by concentrating on the periphery of the population.

As to bashing cops, I need not belabor the obvious. There are a lot more bad cops out there than there were prior to 1974, when the entire dynamic changed. We learn of bad behavior – sometime egregiously bad behavior – by cops every day. What bothers me more than the bad behavior is the casual acceptance of it by the good cops. Help root out those bad cops and I’m on your side. I already support professional pay, professional training, and professional standards.

By a new old cop on Feb 19, 2008

Mr. Young,

Something I have noticed is that you are always talking about cars…cars, cars, cars.

Something else you are saying is speed is not a factor in a crash. If speed was the cause, they must have committed suicide.

Spring is approaching and the sport bikes will be out like flys. We have talked in person about them and I felt like you blew them off. I felt the reason you did that is…you don’t know much about them. It’s a factor you wish to ignore because it will hurt your theory of speeding. This spring through the fall, they will be out there tearing up the back roads putting your theory to work…going as fast as they want. They will be touching 120+ mph on the straights and doing 80+ around a corner that has a warning of 45mph. There will be many, many, many, crashes that you will never hear about and the police will never know about. The only ones police will hear about are the fatal and serious injury. Why did they crash? You will say “to fast for conditions”. I will say “inexperience
and speeding” meaning…not knowing their bike, not knowing the corner, traction, not having their tires up to temp, getting spooked mid turn and not completing it, road conditions (it wasn’t the same as when they were there the day or week before), trying to keep up with the guy in front of him, EGO, so on and so on. I have seen many guys go down(that means crashing)…because they were going to fast. No two ways about it.

Keep tabs on your local sportbike forums, you will see, and I hope understand, what I am talking about. There are some national ones to, you are a researcher…I’m sure you will find them. Every weekend there will be posts of so and so going down and/or other bikes going down with them. Some will die, some will be critically injured and some will be just plain lucky.

I personally knew 2 that died and many others that were lucky, myself included. Many of mine were directly related to speed, PERIOD!!! Some because of road condition, one I remember vividly. Wasn’t speeding, or as you would put it “going at a rate of speed that I felt comfortable with” (could of been going alot faster), just enjoying the view going around the corner.

You may have more miles then me, as of right now, and no at-fault accidents. Something I have on you though, because of my hobbie, are many single bike accidents. Before any of you knuckleheads chime in saying that I am a bad rider, many of them were on a track where it is encouraged to go as fast as you want. Some of them on the street from my early days of being an inexperienced rider.

You Mr. Young, are a level headed driver, an older one at that. I don’t feel you are really going to do what you are trying to do for the “people” and that is…”go as fast as you want”. It seems that you mostly drive on the highways. You want to abolish the speed limit everywhere, I don’t see that as being vary R&P. For the highways, THAT CAN SUPPORT IT, keep your fight going for an increased limit. But for the back roads, it is not going to matter anyway, the crashes are still going to happen. There are very few sportbike riders that went as fast as they want and are still doing it. Like me, they have felt what happens or see what could happen, if they continued their ways. For many of the ones that did crash, the just turn it in to insurance and write of $5000+. If so many of them would have been doing what they were, my insurance would be alot lower on a sportbike. But that is a whole other story.

So there you go Mr. Young, start twisting my words to your liking. Show everyone how evil of a man I am because I became a cop late in life. I want help people and make a change for good. NOT to harass and collect like you think we do. Let the bashing commence.

By James Young on Feb 19, 2008

URROW is the Universal Rule of Right-of-Way, the body of our traffic laws that proscribe who shall drive where and when. This encompasses driving to the right rather than driver’s choice, signals and signs such as lighted signals and stop signs, and – everything else being equal – the car to the right has the ROW. Speed limits have never been a part of URROW but were added much later and provide no clue as to right-of-way.

By James Young on Feb 19, 2008

dave jokah writes:

{You only have a dozen or SO tickets and you want people to drive like you Ha Ha Ha. That’s a dozen or so times you’ve been caught!! I’ve got about the same amount of miles. I’m in sales and travel around the country. I have none! I go the speed limit and pay attention when I drive! I encourage people not to follow your example.}

I’ve been driving legally since I was 14, with farm tractors and trucks since I was about 12. No at-fault crashes. I’ve been through the Bondurant School on my own dollar and on my own time. I do not impede or interfere with other drivers. None of those cites were for anything other than merely exceeding the arbitrary limit and none of those were for anything even close to dangerous.

So, yes, I want other drivers to perform as well.

By Brian on Feb 19, 2008

Interesting discussion. I have to admit, as a bicyclist I am very much in favor of fairly restrictive speed limits on rural and urban roads. I am unconvinced on either case for freeway speed limits.
If we were to remove speed limits on highways, would we then ask LE to cite high risk behavior drivers? What objective standards would apply? Or would it be subjective? In the case of fog and 25 potentially being too fast, would LE make that determination and ticket for it? Would you propose different standards and determinations of unsafe driving for commercial trucks? Their sheer size and limited maneuverability seems to warrant consideration. While I agree that speed limits seem more arbitrary than scientific, I am not sure that the case for removing limits has been justified. On the other hand, there does not appear to be any significant data to correlate improved safety with fixed speed limits.
James Y - could you define URROW for me please? I haven’t had much luck with a web search.

By dave jokah on Feb 19, 2008

Mr.Young? You only have a dozen or SO tickets and you want people to drive like you Ha Ha Ha. That’s a dozen or so times you’ve been caught!! I’ve got about the same amount of miles. I’m in sales and travel around the country. I have none! I go the speed limit and pay attention when I drive! I encourage people not to follow your example. Another thing if people want to write in these columns, learn how to spell first! Have a good day everyone.

By James Young on Feb 19, 2008

Ima Safedriver writes:

{Well good luck with getting those changed, I still see that there are limits however…The last part was “joking” jacka-s! And great, I driven nearly then same amount of miles WITH ZERO tickets and NO traffic stops either! What about the poor “victim” of my traffic stop for unlawful speed yesterday? What, no sympathy for her?}

Without knowing the instant situation I cannot offer judgment. I do have empathy for those of us who must suffer fools every day.

Humor and sarcasm are too often lost in Internet blogs. Whether humor or not, childish is still applicable. The key thing for you to remember is that the apologists for lower limits have been consistently wrong and we advocates for rational traffic laws have been consistently right. The safety Nazis kept predicting horrible consequences if limits were restored to prior levels (a “bloodbath”) but we got them restored and even raised well beyond that and all the key measures just kept improving.

The sad fact is that speed limits do not create a safer environment (or any other benefit) but, because they generate $100 billion a year, are protected by institutional inertia and greed.

I am shocked – shocked I tell you – to learn that there is a cop who has received no citations.

By Joe on Feb 19, 2008

Well James, I guess he’s gonna take his marbles and go home. You wore’em down. I thought he might be losing it there for a minute when he says; NANY NANY BOO BOO!! LOL!!!!
It’s a waste of breath or pen to explain anything to these guys because their job depends on their mentality. Minions of the nanny state will always be this way. I guess looking at it from their point of view I can see how they justify their actions. I might be able to go along with some of what he says but he is a typical cop in that “it’s my way or the highway”. No compromise or attempt to understand the other view. Their arrogance kicks in. I think that’s another thing that turns most people off about law enforcement.
Well there’s another stupid article in todays paper advocating what would amount to more tickets; http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=20080219_1_A15_hRoad23528
They’re not saying who this shady group is that they call “a road safety group”. Probably members of some insurance lobbying group. I’m gonna have to cut my blog short today because I need to go check this out in further detail. Says they believe more laws should be enacted. Hell, they won’t enforce the one’s we already have that impact safety.

By liketoticket on Feb 19, 2008

Keep on speeding I like to keep my job. If you didn’t speed think of how many cops wouldn’t be employed to catch you. Also when its icey don’t speed cause you’ll end up in the ditch and thats right a TICKET for driving stupid.

By Ima Safedriver on Feb 19, 2008

Well good luck with getting those changed, I still see that there are limits however…The last part was “joking” jacka-s! And great, I driven nearly then same amount of miles WITH ZERO tickets and NO traffic stops either! What about the poor “victim” of my traffic stop for unlawful speed yesterday? What, no sympathy for her?

By James Young on Feb 18, 2008

{IPTM is not some “hack” arm of the scamsurance industry}

Is it not funded in large part by the insurance industry, very similar to the funding by extremely conservative corporations for the rightwing Hoover Institute at Stanford?

{How can you criticize LE on one hand then refer to the statistic kept by us on the other???}

Because your own statistics don’t support your stated case. This is what happens with NHTSA, which gets its data in large part from police reports of crashes, but when those data are tabulated, they prove a case almost a polar opposite to their own verbiage.

{BTW, the DOJ information your referenced ended in 2005. I can tell you that violent crime is on the increase!}

Which is exactly why I wrote right in that post, “To be sure, some rates spiked in 2006 but the trend since 1994 has been down. Whether the spikes are the beginning of a new trend or are merely random fluctuations remains to be seen.” In any case, the spikes are not records as you asserted.

{But, speed limits will remain! I win!! You loose!![sic] Hope you get a ticket! LOL!! Nothing you can do about that! NANY NANY BOO BOO!! LOL!!!!}

Aside from the childishness, your perspective is wrong. We have already gotten limits raised from 55 to 80 in Texas. As I write this, Utah is working on going to 80 and Wyoming and Montana are sure to follow. Yet, even as limits increase, the predictions of a bloodbath (their word) by IIHS, AAA, NHTSA and all the usual safety Nazis has never eventuated.

In my 2 million+ miles of driving, I’ve had only a dozen or so tickets, or one every 167K miles. I’ve had one cite since 1994. I’ve also had zero at-fault crashes. You should encourage other drivers to emulate me.