By jhughes on Oct 31, 2007

Just like left wing politics, the people putting together this web page have little or no experience or knowledge in the positive effects of speed traps. Speaking with knowledge, experience and proof, I can tell you that speed kills and speed traps slow down those intended and unintended victims. I have seen it work and will continue to support any community that cares more about it citizens safety that some “poor sucker” who gets a speeding ticket. You people are not doing a community service here, you are instead hurting people, and a large number of them are innocent.

By Trapper on Oct 31, 2007

This article is ludicrous. Especially Point number 7. Do you think the court gives a rats ass about the expense of bringing cops and prosecutors together to stand up to the traffic charges?? The cops in my city get paid 1.5 x salary to attend court!!! And guess who’s paying? The “poor sap” driving like any idiot putting you and your families lives in danger!! IT’S YOUR TAX MONEY!!!

Think about it! For the love of CHRIST! I gots my share of tickets through the years, was I speeding??? yep sure was. So what is a person with integrity, honesty, and a brain going to do???? PAY THE #@#%ing ticket!!! Rocket science.

By James Young on Oct 31, 2007

To jhughes: OK, I’ll bite. Show us your proof. Prove to us that speed traps are truly about something other than money. “Speed kills” is an absurdity proved false long ago. We have more drivers in more cars covering hundreds of millions more miles but the crash, injury and fatality rates just keep improving and have ever since we began keeping such statistics. Not even the vitriolic anti-speed NHTSA can prove that “speed kills.” BTW, don’t even bother with the puerile physics talking points.

By Trapper on Nov 1, 2007

James I agree bud, speed don’t kill, idiots do.
Please though James, come up with a solution. Let’s get our road deaths down next to nill…how do we do that? Accidents are actually motor vehicle collisions, not accidents. Would love to hear your input since you sound very well educated in this realm.

By Christensen on Nov 1, 2007

Responsible Folks should take the time to train the new young drivers on the Do’s and Don’ts. Bad driving habits need to be corrected, it save lives. For example…jack rabbit starts to the next traffic light, or tailgating.

Road condition, traffic congestion and population plays a big role on how fast you should drive on any roadway, regardless of the speed limits. Common sense won’t hurt either, however when you see speed limit signs (three or four) with limits decending within a few hundred feet, you could be a victim of a speed trap.

“Speed does’nt kill, it’s the sudden stop”.

Have a safe day, “be alert and don’t get hurt”.

By crzepilot on Nov 1, 2007

If the government really cared about safety on the highways, why have I not been required to attend some sort of training in the last 15 years? Since I have been 16 I have no idea if laws have changed or if my driving abilities are at a high enough level

By Gideon on Nov 1, 2007

anytime the police sworn to protect and to serve it’s community, sit around only to catch someone generally going 5 miles an hour more than the posted limit (which most people have done who drive or ride), in this mans opinion, they are EXTRACTING money the same as someone who breaks someones legs if they don’t pay up.

I make a mistake and drive a few miles an hour more than the posted, yet I don’t run red lights EVER, and I don’t drive recklessly, I should NOT be forced to hand over my childrens food or clothing as a punishment.

These extractors who cause hardships, can be lienient, but most are heartless.

The laws were created by bureaucrates only to steel more money from the working people.. PERIOD, but they label it “LAW” and then screw the American people and brainwash the rest to think we did some terrible thing and we must pay for that sin.

Yet, the minute the MONEY (the true reason for the ticket) is handed over, we are no longer GUILTY, but if we fail to pay that money, they will enforce even greater afflictions on the people.

It’s all about stealing from the honest person who will make mistakes, to empower the system more.

See it for what it really is. Nothing more than a mob with a lisence to steal and inflict hardship.

Now if you are out of control, let them chase your ass down and bust you.

By Ray Hand on Nov 1, 2007

Within the last two years there was an article published in The Detroit Free Press stating that it is against Michigan State Law for a police Officer to “hide” in order to catch you speeding on radar. The officer MUST BE IN PLAIN SIGHT or the ticket,in court, would be ruled invalid. I am not “computer literate” enough to locate the article on the Internet, but maybe one of you reading this can find it. It only makes sense to me that it is the duty of Police Officers to PREVENT you from speeding, not “set you up” (as in “entrapment”) so that their is a lesser chance of an accident happening. However, speeding tickets are BIG MONEY for cities so elected officials encourage Officers to hide in order to catch speeders. (I.E. - How many times have you traveled an expressway at night and come upon an Officer sitting in one of the “Turnaround for Emergency Vehicles Only” areas with all of his lights TURNED OFF so that you don’t see him until he is now turning his lights on to pull you over and ticket you??) If the police were seriously concerned with stopping speeders, instead of hiding to give tickets (READ-MONEY), they would be out in the open at all times so that you don’t speed in the first place!!!!! I am NOT herein advocating speeding. I am merely stating that it is the Police who are breaking the law by “hiding” and not doing their jobs of preventing you from speeding in the first place!!!! The only logical conclusion is that they do it for MONEY!! Did you know that in the City of Redford, Michigan, officers are paid one hour of overtime for every two tickets they issue?? Do you think those officers are going to be watching for crimes being committed, or are they going to be trying to give traffic tickets so they can get paid an extra hour of overtime without having to put in the extra hour of time?? O.K. - enough for now. Any comments?? - Ray

By Bill on Nov 2, 2007

Well well, boys and girls.
Law enforcement quotas must be met by police officers on traffic duty,and they are generally screened every month.
Most traffic court magistrates or judges become part of the prosecution. Hence, what the policeman says is accepted as the absolute truth, and what the accused says is merely considered an attempt to get out of paying the fine.
When a cop testifies about what his radar gun indicated is accepted by the court as irrefutable (like DNA)
I was ab eighteen wheeller driver for years. Dribeng sleeper cab all across this country. Every moment of the truck speed and engine revolutions was charted. I was warned by oncoming other eighteen wheelers of the speed trap either by the hand signal or over the radio
Of course I made sure this time my speed was less than legal, but I was pulled over numerous times and when I presented my recorded speed charts over the officers testimony I was still found guilty. I am not saying that all cops make perjured statements but they all know what they can get away with.

By future trapper on Nov 2, 2007

I am tired of people complaining about so called speed traps. police are just doing their jobs . Its simple don’t speed and won’t get a ticket.

By chrissy on Nov 2, 2007

Well, jhughes…if you ever come back to review your comments and what the rest of us have said. this is for you:

My last and I think my only ticket I got was from a speed trap almost 20 years ago. I was going less than 10 mph over. I had just pulled ahead of a really smelly city truck, spewing poisonous fumes and pollution from its engine. I had just pulled into the left lane to pass the truck, after being stuck behind him at a red light.

I was doing the correct speed, and he ‘lasered’ my car right at the line where the speed limit dropped like 10 miles an hour. so I wasn’t going like 50 in a 25 mph area.

I told the police officer that….he didn’t care, he wanted me to just go really slow behind the truck…..hmmmm and then cause traffic issues going way under the speed limit…

I had a sick child in my car, on the way to the hospital. The fumes made her sicker and me to get nausous.

When I looked at the ticket, the officer had me listed as a man, I am a woman, and he wrote my car was a white 2 door and I was in a beige 4 door. When I contested this, the judge did not care that the ticket was not correctly written out. The judge didn’t care that the city truck was spewing poison and pollution.

The judge could care less…they still got their money. However the ticket was cut in half, I still lost points.

So to me, our traps are just money making schemes, not safety issues at all. This is what happened to me, this is how I feel about speed traps. I think this because I think this. I am not influenced by party affiliations.

This is still a free country and there is still freedom of speech.

By JFro on Nov 2, 2007

Why do they even make cars that go 100 mph? Where can you even drive a car that fast? And don’t bother with the “..well, in Montana blah blah blah…”

By James Young on Nov 2, 2007

The solution to speed traps is to have all fines, administrative costs, court fees and other monies extracted from the public go to a public corporation at the state level and then have this corporation fund scholarships to state universities. Take the profit out of abusive speed enforcement and it will evaporate. If we aren’t willing to use tax money for enforcement activities then they aren’t worth doing.

The solution to crashes (the neutral term used by NHTSA & investigators) is well under way. While fatality rates will never get to nil, we have the lowest fatality rates in our history and they just keep dropping. Improvements in these and ancillary rates derive primarily from technology, not from enforcement or changes in speed limits.

Traffic laws are a legal solution to an organizational problem when they deal with right-of-way issues such as driving on the right, taking turns at signs or signals. Speed limits have never been a part of that solution and serve only to reduce the efficiency of the system.

By speedfreak on Nov 3, 2007

I’ve been driving for a few years now and here is what i can tell you about cops I’ve seen. They love speeders. I’ve never been tagged for speeding and that is not an amazing idea as if you figure your system out you can stop speeding before all the traps.

The “SPEED KILLS” thing is not true in a modern car as they are designed to keep you safe in almost every kind of collision. Look at places that have bumped limits to 85+ MPH did their death rate go up? The problem with crashes is usually a DRIVER error not a speed problem. I’m not saying speed might not have been a contributing factor, but it’s not the only factor in most crashes. Have any of you looked at the current drivers test? They are not hard enough to make drivers learn how to really drive. Here you go to a classroom do your classes take the written test, which is easy common sense stuff, and then your on a permit. Take your several hours in a car with an instructor, have your parent sign the paperwork, and take your test. The road test has some basic signals and park items, pass those and your golden. Is that truly all you’ll see in a real driving experience, NO. Simple put the lack of care by the younger generation is they have no fear of driving or speed. The US has some of the easiest driving tests in the world.

Look at Germany a country that has a huge population density compared to most parts of the US and they still have parts of the Autobahn that are unrestricted. That is because people there can still drive at very high speed and not crash. The reason is they go through a very strict and long training involving speed driving and avoiding crashes. It’s more like getting a pilots license here hundreds of hours of work, not a few weeknights and a little studying.

Also there are plenty of cars on US roads that are just not safe to drive at any speed, but they can drive them at the speed limit fine, but those with a good solid car that do 5-10 over get hit with huge fines, because we are going faster then some person in an office in the capitol as set, or even in the local city hall. All speed limits should be evaluated every 3 years for major highways, and all the “reports” should be public.

“speed doesn’t kill, abrupt stops kill. So just don’t stop suddenly”

By logan on Nov 3, 2007

I adamantly disagree with jhughes, who thinks that speed traps save lives and protect citizens. Speed traps are entrapment, and therefore unconstitutional. Anyone “citizen” that supports a law maker that is a LAW BREAKER, is no citizen in MY country. If you are going to act like a sheep, JHughes…then you deserve to be treated like a sheep!!!

By Gideon on Nov 3, 2007

When people can’t see the system is warped, the judges are NOT doing honest , fair judging, when the officers word is ALWAYS correct over the accused, that is the same as a dictatorship. You ARE guilty and YOU will pay.

If these judges and officers had the right to cut off your hands or impose death, and your word against theirs was null and void, you would look at this a whole different way.

WE HAVE BEEN CONDITIONED to “THINK” they are doing their job, but what if the system is warped for the sake of money, and that cop is only stealing legally because the system has enabled him via Abuse of power, Above the law attitudes.

The corrupt judges seem to be that way, and these type of letters, need to go back to the gov. officials, so they know they are not as clever as they think they are, and that wwe do not hold them in high esteem any longer.

I believe there are good judges and good cops, but I believe the system and it’s control of power and money has warped judgement, honesty, and doing whats right from the judicial seats.

Our country when first established, had lawless ness etc. but they still founded a country that was free, so even with the lack of speed controls, gun controls, etc. they still made this country work for 100 + years before governing assholes decided to start removing the freedoms and imposing the “queens” taxes again.

Just think about it and watch, and then maybe, just maybe, you’ll see the cops are not doing their jobs (protecting and serving), but breaking legs and imposing hardship.

They want respect.. they gotta earn it

By C. Richter on Nov 3, 2007

I have driven well over a million miles, and I wish I had a dollar for every speed trap that I have seen!Here is a definition of a speed trap. It is a place where 85% or more, of the traffic is exceeding the speed limit by more than 5 miles per hour. When MOST of the traffic is exceeding the speed limit it should be obvious the limit is set too low.

By Paul R. on Nov 4, 2007

Everyone knows tickets are to raise revenue especially if there are speed traps. Speed is not the main cause of accidents, FATIGUE is, and that is proven by all state police forces and sheriff departments and private institutions. Police today would rather ticket an old lady than go after a violent drug gang. They are no longer to protect and serve but to raise revenue. Perhaps we should all flash our lights to warn our fellow drivers of these revenue generators lurching on the side of the roads.

By Paul R. on Nov 4, 2007

Do you feel safe when a person of “authority” is driving behind you? Police very rarely prevent crime they only arrive after the crime has been committed to take the report. Most crimes go unsolved because there is no incentive for the “authorities” to go after violent people or investigate who stole your lawn mower. We would be better off with private detectives investigating our crimes and private security firms protecting our neighborhoods. A private firm would have a reason to protect you and investigate crimes , the reason is profit, which is a good thing. Government can’t and will not protect us. It is up to us to defend our families, not ticket writers.

By jerry on Nov 4, 2007

we’re not here to decide if speed kills or not. We’re here to debate traps. There is a difference. The traps are sneakiy and only for money. If u show to court or not makes no difference in the fine. Pay up or else. $120.00 a speeder times 10 a day is a good days pay for 1 speed trap. Catch em fair & square & it would’t be dubbed a speed trap. We are also not talking about 90 mph in a 70 or 60 mph zone. We are talking 50 in 35 or 30 in a 25, coming down a hill or something. That’s the difference in a sped trap. Next it’s do as I say not as I do. The trapper gets you for 30 in a 25, but then the next day he passes you at 40 or 50 in the same area and 5 mile up the road he is in the restaurant or donut shop. All u trappers tell me its different, and your integrity is impuned. Been there, seen it. It’ll take u 2 years to slow down after you retire. Been there seen it. thanks just use your head

By Paul R. on Nov 4, 2007

If money was not the reason for writing a ticket then why do the “authorities” give you a ticket that has a monetary punishment? Perhaps they could write a ticket without a monetary punishment that just goes to the insurance companies like today, so they can determine your risk. What is the monetary punishment for if it is not to raise money.

By Rural Cop on Nov 6, 2007

I read all of these comments and wonder why people think so hard about a simple solution. You would think everyone was a politician. The easiest way to shut down a so called “speed trap” is…………DON’T SPEED!
If everyone would pay attention to their driving and not their next cd, cell phone call or text message we would not have these problems. Everything is more important than driving a 2-4 ton vehicle @ 50-75 MPH. Any speed limit on any state maintained highway is determined by the state. You want to fix a problem, get elected or vote someone into office that will listen. A cop does not determine the law, only enforce it. Do you gripe about a gas station because gas prices are too high. Think about it.

By James Young on Nov 6, 2007

“The easiest way to shut down a so called “speed trap” is——DON’T SPEED!” Rural Cop

Sure. And the speed limits that produce so many speedtraps are set well below the optimal speed more the majority of drivers. They are statistically much more dangerous than higher limits closer to optimal speeds.

“If everyone would pay attention to their driving and not their next cd, cell phone call or text message we would not have these problems.”

While paying attention to one’s driving is an important issue, to conflate “speeding” with inattentive driving and use of cell phones is dishonest. I’m surprised that you didn’t throw in drunk driving and a school zone.

“Any speed limit on any state maintained highway is determined by the state.”

Partially true. Engineers determine the scientific limit and then politicians step in and reduce that limit to well below the optimal and safest range. They are, in effect, condemning a certain higher proportion of drivers to suffer from crashes.

“A cop does not determine the law, only enforce it.”

BS. Cops and their agencies lobby for particular laws, lower limits, lower BAC levels, more intrusive enforcement and further erosion of civil liberties all the time and all with public funds. And cops are afforded much greater access than regular citizens.

By Bill Leavitt on Nov 7, 2007

I can’t beleve some of those people who believe you can keep from getting a traffic violation by just not speeding. At most speed traps law enforcement will issue tickets for revenue. The allegation for the initial stop is simply an accusation unless you were actually speeding. Once you are stopped and you have shown your drivers license your whole profile is public to the officer. A succession of questions by law enforcement answered without indignation may make or break whether or not you get a ticket if you are not guilty. I have been given tickets for burned out lights, cracks in windshields, no seat belt while driving, no proof of insurance when if I had a cell phone all I would have had to do was call my insurance agent. The newest favorite for Tennessee is failure to file your change of address on your drivers license when you move within ten days. Most of these are good for fines of $25.00 to $125.00. Simply answer the questions and see if any law-enforcement officers issue warning tickets. I actually did get one for going 65 in a 55 in a zone where construction was not in progress and I missed the sign in Alabama.

A speed trap does not always mean you are stopped for speeding unless that jurisdiction is simply counting its fines. The officer told me to be careful and simply keep watch. The warning ticket was simply a log entry to justify he was doing his job. Bill Leavitt

By Fritz on Nov 9, 2007

First I think jhughes is just a rogue trying to inflame the debate, which he/she has successfully done. If somebody is that far from reality their probably never going to be able to see the truth anyhow. jhughes is almost a stand alone in this sea of opinions. Unfortunately for the rest of us the jhughes of the world tend to run for public office and get elected or fill a public office that has authority to do such nasty things. The rest of us whom hate speed traps and abusive law enforcement tend not to run for public office or fill positions of influence over such activity. Most don’t even write their public officials and herein lies the root of the problem. We’ve allowed the problem to fester and now it’s showing up in our daily driving lives big time. Every time I drive to work I am constantly reminded how bad things have gotten.

Due to the volumes of information on the subject on the Internet and the various print and TV media, basically nobody in their right mind is going to argue about the true intent of speed traps and traffic control in the USA. It’s the country’s worst keep secret. It’s no longer even uncommon for a municipality to deny that revenue is the main motivation behind such. In fact some of them brag about the revenue they make. Don’t you find it interesting that the very factor that causes the least accidents gets the most tickets. See http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/19/1992.asp

Revenue from traffic control in general and speed traps in particular is a cancer that’s eaten away at the moral and ethical standards that law enforcement used to enjoy. Gone are the days when officers walked the beat and gained a repore and respect from their constituents. Now-a-days the only way you meet your friendly local cop is during a traffic stop. Not the best way to influence support especially if the cop becomes abusive in the process.
Revenue has corrupted our local governments too. All municipalities now have annual budgets in which a certain percentage of their operating revenue is expected to be filled by traffic ticket revenue. The smaller the jurisdiction the worse it tends to get.

And, I get a little tired of these sympathizers who constantly echo that cops are JUST doing job. What a hell’va job that must be. In my younger days as with most of you, we could have become cops too. We were/are certainly physically fit enough and intelligent enough but who wants to set out there on the highways and byways manning a speed trap screwing your fellow citizens all day long. I don’t know about you but this is not my idea of a ideal job. That’s not to say we don’t need cops and even traffic cops but we need cops who don’t have an agenda, a giant ego, ones who are testosterone driven or all of the above. A truly good cop is worth a million dollars, a bad cop is your worst nightmare and a mediocre cop is somewhere in between. Sure there good cops but I dare say most of those are not going to slouch to the lowly level of constantly manning a radar gun generating revenue for your employer. Traffic control was never intended to become business like it has. Then some would say we are all a bunch of cop haters so don’t call one when you need one. It’s always been my premise that we have police to protect us from crime not set out there and write tickets all day long. I don’t consider most of my fellow drivers criminals. It’s pretty much human nature to dislike something when you get mistreated by it or you see a serious miscarriage of justice administered by it. And most crime victims will tell you that a cop was no where to be found when they became victims of a crime.

There’s been many thoughtful and intelligent posts on this site. I just hope you’ll turn around and echo those comments to your state and local public officials. Those of us who see this corruption and miscarriage of justice HAS got to start being heard by government officials because if we fail to speak up believe it or not things can get a lot worse. Some of the enforcement technology on the horizon will make you almost afraid to pull out of your driveway. Jealous public officials and new technology are culminating to make our driving experience miserable and expensive.

By Fritz on Nov 9, 2007

I wonder what planet jhughes came from?

By Cullen on Nov 11, 2007

To all who say “Simple, don’t break the law and you won’t get caught”

Read this quote and weep.

“It is not possible to rule innocent men; the only power government has is the power to crack down upon criminals. When no criminals exist, one makes them - one declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws.”
-Ayn Rand

That is exactly what is going on here on our roads and highways.

A “speed trap” is not simply an officer or officers clocking speeds in a certain location. It’s a location where the speed limit goes down by a silly amount for no reason, and cops are almost always clocking speeds there hoping to catch those who missed the signs. A good example of that is Town Creek, AL near where I live. Highway 20 is 4 lanes and very wide, with a 65 speed limit. The limit drops to 45 THREE MILES away from the center of town to the west and at least TWO miles before it needs to. The drop on the east side of town is appropriate and is only a mile away from the center of town. The west side of the town is a true “speed trap” - for 2 of those 3 miles of 45, nothing but cornfields line the highway. Tell me exactly why the speed limit is 45. I bet you can’t, and the only “legitimate” excuse is it’s a speed trap used for revenue enhancement.

By Renee Marks on Nov 12, 2007

I thought you were asking if I knew of a speed trap….IN KCK, there are so many it is ridiculous. They don’t fight crime here, but they do write tickets. We are known as having the MOST unsolved MURDERS…Why, Because Wyndotte County cops are busy writing tickets. The best spot is MINNESOTA AVE…THE only street that has a 20 mile per hr limit. I got a ticket for going around a driver on his right who was sitting at the light waitng to left. Yep, that’s right. But mainly, they are waiting for speeders. A block over State Ave is 35 miles an hour…

By Renee Marks on Nov 12, 2007

From 1st & Minnesota to 38th st…Speed limit is 20…KAnsas City KS. They’re just waiting to write a ticket for almost anything…some which no one probably knew was a crime, Like passing on the right while another passenger sits at the light waiting to make a left turn.

By Jeff on Nov 12, 2007

I fully support the consensus of the group that speed traps are purely for revenue generation. The argument that they are to increase roadway safety is completely bogus on so many levels. One thought that I will add is…

The fact of the matter is that speed limits are set unnecessarily low to generate revenues and speeding fines are generally set at a level where (for most of us) they create a minimal amount of pain. I believe the fines are set intentionally low enough to ensure that most people will simply write a check because their time is more valuable than spending a few hours contesting a ticket.

If adhering to speed limits was so detrimental to our driving safety, then the fines for speeding should be raised to something like $1000 for driving 1 mph over and mandatory jail time for 5mph over. If I were faced with those penalties, I would certainly *not* speed…ever! The result of this change? Thousands cops would be out of work since the revenue stream and job-justifying duties (conducting speed traps) they currently perform would cease to exist.

By Mike on Nov 12, 2007

I don’t like speed traps at all. But the real kicker (and my total rant) is how a private company (your insurance company) can surcharge you for speeding. You didn’t cost your insurance company any money in a claim. Yet, you get 2 or 3 points depending… It will cost you more in insurance for a stupid speeding ticket than it would by the courts for punching someone out in a bar. It’s ludicrous.
Imagine if you went to walmart and had to pay a surcharge on your toilet paper because you got caught speeding.
It amounts to the same thing.
You can thank your insurance company for purchasing the Lidar/radar guns used by law enforcement to set up speed traps with.
They are in bed together.

By JeD on Nov 12, 2007

“Don’t speed = don’t get a ticket” is another one of those things you say to simpletons to make the bad dreams go away. However, it doesn’t come close to the truth. One evening, about 9pm, in NJ, I was driving from A to B, with out of State plates, in a plain white four door sedan, with wife and son. I was conspicuously sticking to the speed limit. I had already observed many police vehicles, in transit, usually well above the posted speed limit “but I thought speed kills?”, and in the process of ticketing other drivers. A car flys up the left lane, slams on the brakes to suddenly not pass me. Side/tailgates for several seconds, moves back to the driver’s blind spot, sidegates for a several more seconds, pulls in behind me, rides the rear bumper for a while longer, then come the red and blue lights. The officer strolls up and tells me I’ve been pulled over for having a taillight or a brakelight out. !!?? OK, so it was working when I left point A it worked. I’ll get it fixed tomorrow. The next thing I know, I’m being told to step out of the vehicle and he’s pressuring me to submit to a drug search of my vehicle. I figured that since I’ve never been anywhere near drugs in my life that a search, which will turn up nothing, would put me squarely in the good guy column and he would let me go. Then I and my whole family have to sit on the side of the road at 9:30 at night, long past the kid’s bedtime, without proper warm clothing, we were supposed to be inside the whole trip, for 45 minutes while the new drug dog cop plays with his niffty toy and is observed by not 1 but 4 other officers. Then when it is finally all over, he still writes me a $60 citation for a non-maintenance of a light. A light which on inspection the next morning I can’t find!!

Yeah, “don’t speed = don’t get a ticket”. There’s this bridge in AZ I’d love to sell you. Cops don’t enforce the law, they enforce their personal pet peeves, selectively. Then when you get robbed or mugged or some other serious issue, the bad guy gets away, or a lawyer gets him off with a bit of a fine. And they wonder why the profession has lost so much respect in the last few decades? Get a clue. This is only one reason I doubt anything a copy says. There are many others to go with it.

By Mike on Nov 12, 2007

Accidents are bound to happen. Speed has little or nothing to do with that. It is a statistical guarantee that with more cars on the road, there will be more accidents. As our population increases, there will be more and more accidents. I guarantee it.

Sure, we could try and reduce that number, but at what cost. I promise we could find more terriorists if the police were allowed to do sweeping raids on peoples homes with no warrant or probable cause. We would be “safer”, but at what cost?

If the issue was to truly reduce the number of collisions through speed enforcement, they federal government could simply mandate that all states must require governors be placed on all cars which caps the vehicles speed at the maximum speed limit in that state. This would not prevent all speeding, but it would help.

As GPS technology progresses, we could track the speed of all cars and either restrict their speed remotely or issue citations based on the GPS readings.

If these examples are not enough, I’m sure you can think of some more on your own. Point is, where are we headed with all of this? At what point will we sacrifice ALL of our freedom to be “safe”? Is this the world you want to live in?

Death is a part of life. Accept it and do what YOU can to be safe and avoid danger. Let the rest of us live free!!!

By Thom on Nov 13, 2007

Don’t get upset with JHUGHES, given time he’ll be picked up as well whether he’s speeding or going too slow impeding traffic (thereby driving reckless)leading to accidents and perhaps killing someone as a result. They have no knowledge. He must trust the accuracy of his speedo. Every car off the assembly line has inherent inaccuracies and have guidelines set by the government. Remember, each speedo part is supplied by the lowest bidder/supplier. Older vehicles with higher mileage, changed equipment, tire size change or low pressure changes the speed readings. My own vehicle speedo is off and I had it checked by a friendly NH cop, and GPSso know the errors at various speeds. Even the cop’s car will have a variation between their own speedo and the radar they are using, guaranteed. The JHUGHES of this planet will get theirs given time and the cops have time.

I have been a quality control engineer for 26 years supplying custom gaging products to many different industries around the country which covers cameras, watches, Aerospace, Defense (Patriot Missile etc), gearing, thread gaging to name a few and I have patents. So I know something about systems.

Do some GOOGLE searches about speedo errors and how some countries/states compensate for these errors if they aren’t revenue crazy. It’s noted that some places allow 10% plus 4mph, others 5-10mph from the speed limit. The radar unit itself has errors if not setup correctly. Stone buildings give off radiation which can fool a radar unit. I doubt the cop using the radar knows everything about it such as the cosine factor, miss readings, correct calibration and the safety/health factor.

Let the cop get exposed to the radiation/ microwave emissions. If they wouldn’t stick their head in a microwave oven, why use the radar, it’s use is accumulative. It should be a health concern. But guess they are dumbed to the fact the “the government says they are safe”. But, if they wind up with health problems, they’ll get disability/work comp from the public. If you doubt this, the CT State Police had a big problem; officers were getting tumors and cancer because of the exposure. This fact is well known in NE. Cell phones and exposure to electrical fields have been a concern for years. Why be exposed to some alien questionable device??? It’s dumb. Sit on a speed trap and get cooked.

In a town in lower AL, I got picked up for speeding (about 5 seconds worth) in a strange vehicle. I realized my speed picked up a bit going down a grade so I backed off. A cop got me in that 5 second period. Being an out of stater traveling in AL it shocked me. It wasn’t my average speed, on a open country road, nothing reckless. Upon investigation, there wasn’t any speed limit signs and the cop was out of his jurisdiction. They constantly patrol these roads as I found out as the speed limit was low. In Court, the cop lied under oath and the so-called “judge” threw out the law violations by the cop. The “trial” wasn’t suppose to be in that court. But they want the money. I pleaded not guilty and am appealing. That 5 seconds so far has cost over $350. I have proof of all infractions by the cop and judge. May sue the town as well when done. Furthermore, I was ready to pay either by check or credit card, if I had to pay a fine. They would only accept CASH. If I didn’t have a friend who used the ATM, I’d be in jail. They don’t inform you CASH was the only method of payment. The judge was a total prick, must have been a lawyer that couldn’t succeed in private practice, so got the lucrative judge position and is milking the public. Good luck to the JHUGHES’s.

It’s amazing to see how corrupt the local cops and judges are in certain areas. I saw young girls leave the court crying wherein they stated they were not guilty of the charges. You knew they were telling the truth. In speed trap/heavy patrolled areas there isn’t such a thing as verbal/written warnings. The Federal government is corrupt, some state government and the local government. What does all this have to say to the youth of this country? Just do as they do; lie, cheat and steal.

I totally agree with the seven ways to defeat the speed traps as I’ve already planned on doing those things and more as herein mentioned. AND FRITZ is right on the money.

I’ve driven for 50 years and over two million miles without an accident or a ticket. Now I’ve spent $$$$ and may have my credit & license points/insurance rate increase because of rogue cops and a greedy local system.

Sorry to take so much space, waiting for the JHUGHES’s to get a dose of reality.

By hubcap on Nov 13, 2007

Y’all seem to be missing the big picture here. America is a now a fascist state and well on its way to a totalitarian theocracy. It’s been a subtle power grab, but they have been largely successful and the USA looks very much like Germany in the Thirties.

Under the wildly exaggerated threat of “terroris”, we have lost the fundamental cornerstones of liberty; habeas corpus is gone; posse comitatis is gone, the Fourth and Eighth Amendments are gone. The entire concept of due process and judicial review are in serious jeopardy.

The continued existence of speed traps is but one tiny step in the march to a complete abdication of liberty, one that allows and expands police power. (And to read the comments of the LEOs in these threads, it is clear that nothing would please the average cop more than absolute unchecked power–even more than they have now.)

The next step the ruling class will take will be to severely restrict travel. They’ve already made it difficult; gas is expensive, driving - especially out of state - is just asking to get arrested, and flying is just absurd in its level of inconvenience. Take the train? Let’s just say Amtrak’s website should be called youcantgettherefromhere.com.

When the police have and indiscriminately use their unfettered power to stop you, search your vehicle and your person they are acting as agents for the corrupt regime and are as individuals as much as hazard to the Constitution as George Bush himself.

Any police officer or public official participating in a speed trap, DUI/seatbelt/license checkpoint, or unwarranted search is a traitor to the Constitution and should be treated as such.

BTW that suggestion to call your “representatives”? What a friggin’ joke. Nobody represents the people; we are on our own.

PS: To the NSA agent reading this with AT&T’s help: To Hell with you and your boss; I refuse to live in fear.

By Thom on Nov 13, 2007

I totally agree with HUBCAP as well as all my HS classmates of the ‘57 era; Air Force military friends whom all realize that era was the best. This country is going to hell in a basket mostly generated by greed.

Also I give this email being distributed as an enlightenment on the internet:

Traffic Cop Saturday, May 6 2006

I was flying down the road yesterday (ie 20 mph over the limit). I passed under a bridge only to find a policeman with a radar gun on the other side laying in wait. He pulled me over, walked to the car and with that classic patronizing smirk we all know and love, asked “What’s your hurry?”

To which I replied “I’m late for work.”

“Oh yeah”, said the policeman, “what do you do?”

“I’m a rectum stretcher,” I responded.

The policeman stammered, “A what?; A rectum stretcher? And just what does a rectum stretcher do?”

“Well,” I said, “I start by inserting one finger, then I work my way up to two fingers, then three, then four, then with my whole hand in I work side to side until I can get both hands in, and then I slowly but surely stretch, until it’s about 6 feet wide.”

“And just what the hell do you do with a 6 foot asshole?” To which I politely replied, “you give him a radar gun and park him behind a bridge…”

Traffic ticket 195.00 Court costs 45.00 The look on his face:
Priceless

By Thom on Nov 13, 2007

To HUBCAP, really appreciate your expression of reality as well as FRITZ did. You’d be interested in my circle of friends as we have such/similar concerns and views. It’s an enjoyment to see someone of equal or more intelligence/awareness, you’re sharp and well learned and would be interesting to talk with.

If more people had such convictions, self esteem and education, this country would not be in decline and police power and government(s) would be more rational and respected by the concerns of it’s citizens. But they (cops and legislators) are a product of their mentality and influence.

Too many sheep (JHUGHES’s for instance) exist because of the government (all the give-away money schemes to get voters) and they all allow/condone it everything. People have to get a handle on it and have the Constitution respected. But most of them are a result of public (government) schools, lousy education. If done, perhaps people can again roam the highways freely, enjoy the country without being subjected to the corrupt/greedy police and courts/judges, as I’ve found out.

In the military I put my life on the line for this country and to think this is the evolution of my sacrifices. I’ll fight these bastards to the end to protect my kids and their kids. I’m one mad vet and citizen.

By Thom on Nov 13, 2007

I hope the NMA is aware of this as well as the public.

http://autos.aol.com/article/safety/v2/_a/states-with-worst-speeding-tickets/20070829110209990001

Speeding Tickets
Depending on where you live, speeding ticket fines can range from the puny to the punitive.

In July, Virginia began charging most speeders an additional $1,050 fine on top of its usual $300, with drunken drivers there now facing an additional fine of up to $2,250. Other heavy hitting states include Georgia, Illinois and North Carolina, where maximum fines can hit $1,000, as well as New York, Texas and New Jersey.

Obviously, drivers and driver groups are upset at having to pay out more than their share to fund infrastructure improvements — the root of the Virginia fine increases — while some groups believe the fine increase acts as a deterrent against speeding or reckless drivers.

Top 10 States with Maximum Fines
States Fines
Virginia $1311
Nevada $1000
Georgia $1000
North Carolina $1000
Illinois $1000
New Hampshire $1000
Utah $750
Oregon $600
Kansas $500
Maryland $500

Source: National Highway Traffic Safety Administration
Virginia’s new law (which impacts only Virginia residents, not drivers from other states caught in Virginia) imposes a mandatory $1,050 fee on anyone convicted of a speeding ticket for driving more than 20 mph over the limit, or anyone traveling 15 mph over the limit in a 65 mph zone. When added to a drunken driving offense, a speeding ticket’s total can reach $3,550. Fees are added to almost all traffic offenses, felony and misdemeanor, including reckless driving or even driving with faulty brakes. You can also incur the inflated fine for using the wrong turn signal or driving too fast for conditions. Simple traffic infractions like rolling through a stop sign will not result in an increased fine. Some solace is offered in that only Virginia residents will be targeted, out-of-state drivers won’t have to pay the add-on fees, but will still be fined for the original offense, or usually about $300.

Toward infrastructure
State lawmakers in Virginia expect to raise $60 to $120 million a year through their “civil remedial fees,” to be put toward road improvements and maintenance, the Washington Post reports. Some studies suggest states could raise as much as $57 billion toward infrastructure improvements if they pursued the same policies. That’s quite an incentive and, increasingly, seems to be the way lawmakers are turning. Many states and cities add “surcharges” to standard speeding ticket fines, though these are often smaller — about $100 per offense — and do apply to out-of-state drivers.

The hefty Virginia levy drew heavy fire. One state lawmaker, Delegate Bob Marshall, a Republican, complained that the bill’s passing would be akin to “turning the police into tax collectors with guns.” Even AAA, which backed the punitive measures initially, released a statement this week distancing itself somewhat from the policy.

“While the abusive driver fees were designed to help fund road maintenance in the Commonwealth and were intended to serve as a deterrent to dangerous driving behaviors, they have clearly been met with disapproval by many,” the American Automobile Association statement said.

Rankings provided by The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS)
Gov. Tim Kaine has indicated he doesn’t want to make any changes to the law other than to expand the fees to include out-of-state motorists. AAA has endorsed this expansion.

The effect
In some counties of Virginia, including Henrico County, all drivers with speeding tickets for driving above 90 mph face an automatic one-day stay in jail. Some offenses, such as passing a school bus, are treated as a misdemeanor that remains permanently on your record. Chances are your insurance will rocket, too, in which case anything you can do to mitigate this hit — like taking a traffic-school class — pays for itself in the long run. The Web site speedingticketcentral.com advises that, in their editors’ experience, drivers will escape most fines by keeping within 10 mph of the speed limit.

Policies like a state’s insistence on collecting the first part of a $1,050 speeding ticket fine, or $350, at the courthouse, as in Virginia, have further angered motorists. “A lot of times they are surprised, they don’t realize how big these fines are,” said Aaron Quinn of the National Motorists Association. “A lot of people are getting their license(s) suspended because they can’t pay these fines, which triggers an ongoing cycle of fines. There’s no deterrent between paying $200 and $2,000. No one wants to pay either. Two thousand dollars can be a huge chunk of annual income if you’re making minimum wage.”

Learn about the latest safety technology and which vehicles are best for your family.
Enter here
Quinn says lawmakers have gone in the direction of speeding ticket fines because “it is politically unpopular to raise taxes, especially the gasoline tax, where much of the road funding comes from. No one likes raising the income tax. But by going after speeders, no one will argue.”

International
Don’t think of packing up and heading to Canada to escape hefty speeding ticket fines: Ontario has passed a law that takes effect Sept. 30 that includes a $10,000 fine for the worst speeders, 25 mph over the speed limit. A second offense could result in a 10-year driving ban. To prove they mean business, a special surveillance plane will help police enforce the law.

By Hubcap on Nov 13, 2007

To Thom: Thanks for the compliments {{blush}}!!

This idea of high fines earmarked for certain public expenditures is at best counter productive and a good example of why politicians always seem to be spending us ever deeper into debt.

The object of very high fines is to stop people from speeding. Fair enough. But then if the fines actually have the desired effect and nobody speeds, the revenue stream from speeding tickets dries up, and whatever project - like say bridge maintenance - that was dependant on that income now has to be funded from some other source.

Same thing with taxing smokers to pay for health care; it conflates a “sin tax” with financing the common good.

I have no problem paying taxes. Taxes fund the infrastructure necessary to maintain a healthy, productive, and educated citizenry. If you need money to fix and maintain that infrastructure whether it be transportation, healthcare, education or space exploration, just ask and I think we are all ok with kicking in a few extra bucks.

However I have a real problem with politicians telling me my taxes will be low while funding the commonwealth by extorting money from a few individuals and calling it “justice”.

By Rural Cop on Nov 14, 2007

I see several people talking about the fines they received form speed traps and how greed is corrupting our country. I am not saying there is not one out there, but where is the website for the profits oil companies are making?
Just a comparison.

Speeding ticket: $300-$1311 (in Virginia, per Thom)
Approximate revenue generated: $60-$120 million per year (per Thom’s information)

Gallon of gas: $3.18 (on average)
Revenue produced: $56 billion (per interview with the president of Shell Oil, 11-14-07)

Now in my opinion, that is a problem.

I would rather see my money support local communities than some CEO’s 17 year old dopehead.

Also, I must not work for a speed trap commumity (even though we were listed on SpeedTrap.org), because the town does not have the money, and neither does our police department. We don’t drive new cars, don’t have pretty uniforms or new equipment, and don’t make much money.

Don’t take an experience with one Police Officer and make it as if the majority are bad or corrupt. We can say the same about citizens. Try and look at it from our perspective.

By mike on Nov 15, 2007

Rural Cop- you may be the exception, but you are not the rule.

You are blind or shielded from what most people live with as you wear the “blues” that exempt you from the very laws we, the general public are all subject to.

On your days off, if you are pulled over, do you not get a pass when you show your badge? You know nothing of being on the receiving end of what you dish out on a daily basis.

I truly feel bad for the very few good cops that are out there but I’m afraid I have been screwed so many times now by power drunk police that I must stereotype them all as mindless minions of the state who have only the common sense of a robot programmed to destroy the free society our forefathers envisioned for this great nation.

By Hubcap on Nov 15, 2007

I agree with Mike.

No one who carries the “brass pass” can know the sheer terror of having a cop car roll up behind you on a lonely highway. You don’t know if you’re in for a friendly warning for a lamp out or the beating of your life because you just happen to “fit the description.”

It is a really sad commentary that as I go through my day-to-day life, I feel as if I have far more to fear from the police than I do from any criminal. And I’m a middle-aged white guy. I can only imagine how much worse it is for Blacks and Latinos.

So LEOs, how do you answer that?

By Paul on Nov 17, 2007

In reading these posts, I have to say a couple of things. We get the government that we deserve. We, as a nation, are more interested in Paris Hilton than we are concerned about liberty and our civil rights. The “don’t speed and you have no problem” bunch is missing the larger point. Our laws are more and more about CONTROL over you and I. Sort of like Farenheit 451, we are lulled to sleep by our PRO SPORTS and ENTERTAINMENT. And we sit here and wonder why our government screws us? Why shouldn’t it. Gosh knows we are not paying attention. Police are always lobbying for more “tools” to fight the war on ______ (fill in the blank). Our politicians always love to be seen in ads with cops. Makes them look tough. I once took a class taught by a County Magistrate when I lived in West Virginia. The most profound thing that he said was that “some day we will lock up all the drug lords.. then we will need to come after you”. No kidding if that isn’t the truth. MADD started out with a noble cause, but what are they fighting for now? Even lower BAC limits (that have nothing to do with drunk driving) and MORE tools for police to stop you (primary enforcement of seat belt laws).

Yeah, all you “law and order” kinds that like strict law enforcement would have loved Nazi Germany too. The furher would have enjoyed your compliant, bend over approach. You guys must love it when your tax money is used to fund another “crackdown” all in the names of saving just one life.

Meanwhile, the lives of all of us are being killed slowly a bit every day. I’m not for reckless driving. Most cops are honest and hard working. But it is clear to me that we are living in a world that is being lulled to sleep by its own apathy as the iron fist of an almighty and all powerful government with its IRS, FBI and “sharing” information with our local government is choking us to death.

But hey, as long as the NFL plays on Sundays, what do we care?

By Officer Josh on Nov 18, 2007

Ok thats rediculous hubcap what did you say the “shear terror of a cop pulling up on you” haha thats rediculous “the beating of a lifetime” lol. b/c you fit a description doesnt mean you are gonna get beat it means we might tell you to get out of the car and lay down but thats for our own safety not to “abuse you”. i mean if your not guilty a cop rolling up on you shouldnt be a problem. man you must have a guilty conscience or a warrant out for you. lol very comical statement. And to label all cops as “power drunk” is like saying all citizens are criminals on our end. i mean our job does jade us a little i mean if you delt with the scum of the earth everyday you would be to. People wonder why we approach aggressivly, its b/c we dont know that your a good person everyone looks nice but you could pull a gun out any second and thats how we have to treat a situation or were dead.

By hubcap on Nov 19, 2007

Apparently times have changed. It’s been pushing two decades since the last time I was pulled over and I recall it was kind of a gentleman’s agreement for speeding. “Yeah, you caught me fair and square. I’ll pay my fine, and so long until we meet again officer.”

So it’s about 10:00 on a Wednesday night and I’m on my way home from school, rolling down a very empty freeway. Yeah I’m over the limit, but there’s not another car in sight.

Suddenly I’m being tailgated close so I try to decide if I should go left or right to get out of this jerk’s way. That’s about when the aforementioned jerk lights me up.

He put up so much light I couldn’t see a damn thing. We are now doing 70 mph bumper to bumper and he blinds me, nice move. I’m trying to pick my way over the right shoulder and the officer gets on his PA and starts barking orders. “DON’T STOP HERE! I. WILL. TELL. YOU.WHEN. TO STOP”.

From that point on there was nothing I could do right. It was like boot camp. “TURN YOUR LIGHTS OFF!” TURN YOUR LIGHTS ON! I DIDN’T SAY ANYTHING ABOUT FLASHERS! TURN THE FLASHERS OFF! It never stopped; it was just a wall of sound-this guy barking orders like a goddamned Marine DI.

When I finally got to a point when I guess it was okay to stop, he bellows “STOP THE VEHICLE! STOP THE VEHICLE! STOP THE VEHICLE NOW!” Literally he’s still screaming “STOP THE VEHICLE!” as I’m pulling up on the park brake.

By now I figure going 85 is the least of my problems. I have the windows down and my hands out the driver’s window. He approaches the car, looks in and starts screaming again “WHO TOLD YOU TO PUT YOUR HANDS UP? TURN OFF THE ENGINE-KEEP THOSE HANDS WHERE I CAN SEE THEM! He asks questions, but never stops shouting so I can’t answer. “WHY ARE YOU ACTING STRANGE? HOW MUCH HAVE YOU HAD TO DRINK?” He asked me that one about 400 times. He keeps the light in my face so I can’t see him or anything else.

I keep my mouth shut. I don’t want to do or say anything that is going to make this guy any angrier with me. Meanwhile I’m trying to figure out exactly what it is I did wrong besides being on his freeway at the wrong time.

He looks at my papers, sees that they are in order and says “Clearly you don’t get pulled over very often, don’t speed and that won’t happen. Consider this a verbal warning”.
He gets back in his cruiser and is gone in a flash.

All that for speeding and I didn’t even get a ticket?! The only thing I can think is that he somehow became convinced that I was his big 502 bust for the night, the duce that was going to run and he was more than a little pissed off when I turned out to be just an old white guy driving a little too fast.

By hubcap on Nov 19, 2007

Officer Josh, my feelings are my feelings. You can call them ridiculous if you wish, but I haven’t just made this stuff up. Feelings are born of experience. Let’s call it Rodney King Syndrome.

All of us here in San Diego still quite vividly recall the CHP officer who used to pull over young women and take them down below an overpass for a “conversation”…until one young lady turned up dead.

Or the SD police officer a few years ago who cruised the beach committing rape. Or more recently the cop who shot a San Diego Charger in the course of “apprehending a drunk driver” even though the aforementioned officer was off-duty, out of his jurisdiction and of questionable sobriety himself.

And just this past weekend there were two separate cases of security guards pretending to be real cops and demanding sexual favors from women. (Yeah I know they are not “sworn officers” but they wear uniforms and frequently have guns so when you are the receiving end of some excessive authoritarianism, the officer’s certification level makes not one whit of difference.)

Add that to dozen or more cases of cops shooting and killing unarmed civilians (mostly homeless) generally for the crime of “bizarre behavior” over the past decade, and yes, I have more to fear from the police than the criminal.

If I am confronted by a criminal, I can either fight or run. I can do neither of those things when a cop is looking to jack me up.

By Hubcap on Nov 19, 2007

To continue, Officer Josh, your comment that I must be guilty of something or have a warrant if I’m not just kicking back enjoying my roadside detention is a perfect example of what I’m talking about. You assume I’m guilty of something; I probably just haven’t been caught yet.

Yes, I understand when you pull a vehicle over; you have no idea what you are walking into. It may very well be the last stop you ever make. I’m sure it can be more than a little frightening. I get it.

But what you have to understand is that I’m in exactly the same position when you pull me over. I do not know if you are even a real cop. I don’t know if I or my vehicle “fits a description” and I may be a felony suspect until proven otherwise. I don’t know if you are feeling particularly jumpy on this particular stop and you think I’m reaching for a weapon when I’m just getting my insurance papers.

Maybe you’ve pulled me over because you just don’t like whatever opinion my bumper stickers express. (Actually I don’t have any bumper stickers, but I’ve heard of more than one case of that happening.)

Maybe you are pulling me over for a perfectly legitimate reason; I’m going to get the ticket I have coming for whatever law I broke and we are both going to be gentlemen and treat each other respectfully. But the point is I don’t know at the outset any more than you do, except you have already run my plate.

I appreciate you comments.

By Emily on Nov 22, 2007

Hubcap your awesome. The topics that you have brought up for discussion I to have thought about. Its nice to see there are others out there.

By Jack on Nov 23, 2007

What a bunch of sniviling cry babies, ‘yall paid $25,000 + to buy that clunker you are driving down the hiway and trying to emulate the guy in the TV ad ( that got you to buy your junker in the first place) flying down the road. Y’all drive too fast, drink too much and cry like a whining baby when you get caught and fail to take any of the blame saying it was everyone else’s fault but your own for your stupid driving . What a bunch of whining assholes on this site.

By James Young on Nov 23, 2007

Exactly why should we take “blame” for perfectly reasonable behavior? The issue is not that our behavior is “stupid driving” but that those who call it “stupid driving” are doing so because they make money from it.

By a new old cop on Nov 23, 2007

Some of you guys crack me up!!! I have been driving 20+ years before I became a cop. I have about 10 tickets I have received in my life and pulled over 20+ and let sgo . No seat belt. No insurance(state law says I must have it on me at all times. How is a cop to know I really do have valid insurance…I know,
I will just call my insurace agent even though it’s midnight or later. Why should it be my responsibility to keep what is required of me in my car when I can put it on my agents shoulder? Speeding, 2 I don’t think I deserved. 4 of them, yup…I did it, and didn’t blame anyone else. Paid my fine and moved on. I bet some of you blame your mom when you got caught with your hand in the cookie jar. Wasn’t your fault, she should’t of left them out in the first place!

I will agree that SOME of you got a semi bogus ticket, like the ones at speed limit changes. I don’t hang out near them…that would be like shooting fish in a barrel. I have a question for you. Do you start stoping AFTER the stop sign or BEFORE it?? Treat a speed limit sign the same, start slowing down before it.

Some of you need to accept responsibility for what you have done, and quit blaming others. But that is becoming less and less in this world. It’s not my fault you caght me going fast, it’s yours because I didn’t see your lights on while you were sitting on the highway…rrriiiigght.

By James Young on Nov 23, 2007

new old cop writes:

“Speeding, 2 I don’t think I deserved. 4 of them, yup - I did it, and didn’t blame anyone else. Paid my fine and moved on.”

The burden of proof that citations serve a valid purpose AND have a positive effect on key safety measures is yours. You and your brethren are the ones making the assertion, indeed, the entire assumption behind traffic enforcement. Of course, there is no statistical correlation between the level of enforcement or the speed limit at the three key safety measures. NONE. In simple terms: what you do does not work but you continue to do it because it generates about $100 billion a year for the speed control industry.

Paid your fine and moved on? Why? Why should any of us have to pay a fine because we exceeded an arbitrary and unscientific limit that serves no purpose? When citizens are punished for rational behavior they lose respect for all laws and those who enforce them.

“Some of you need to accept responsibility for what you have done, and quit blaming others.”

No, it is not citizens who need to accept responsibility for what is a rational action. It is the law that must step up and be responsible; it is the law that must replace greed with reason; and it is up to those who have prostituted their integrity a citation at a time to speak up in favor of reason. Until that happens you all will just be a bunch of cowards hiding behind a badge and a ticket book.

By a new old cop on Nov 24, 2007

James Young writes:

“In simple terms: what you do does not work but you continue to do it because it generates about $100 billion a year for the speed control industry.”

So I guess you are saying something must work perfect before it is put to use. I bet you run your life in such a perfect manor. Let us just say you were able to do what you wanted with the all the speed limits. Someone else out there would be complaining of the way you did it and how you are doing it. One thing can’t be perfect for every body.

“Paid your fine and moved on? Why?”

Because I was MAN enough to admit what I did was wrong. 79 in a 60…let me guess, you would you would say it wasn’t your fault.

“Why should any of us have to pay a fine because we exceeded an arbitrary and unscientific limit that serves no purpose?”

What you ment to say is you got caught doing something wrong and don’t want to pay for it.

Here let’s put a little science in it. Let us say that a highway has the design and capability to handle 100 mph. (I have a bike that will handle 150 mph pretty easy) Now let’s put in all the variables…cars that can’t handle that kind of speed(they would end up going 20-40 mph slower, at that kind of closing speed some people wouldn’t be able to react fast enough), kids that just got their license(not enough experience to handle that kind of speed, people that just don’t want to go that fast, people that would go 10-15-20mph faster then the limit(just like they do now) just cause they want to get to where they want to go even faster etc. etc.

“When citizens are punished for rational behavior they lose respect for all laws and those who enforce them.”

What’s rational to you isn’t rational to everybody.

“No, it is not citizens who need to accept responsibility for what is a rational action.” once again the mentality of…”it’s not my fault that I got caught.”

“It is the law that must step up and be responsible; it is the law that must replace greed with reason;”

I do reason…I let WAY more go ten I ticket.

“Until that happens you all will just be a bunch of cowards hiding behind a badge and a ticket book.”

Coward?? Nope, not me. I have set up an e-mail address, I invite you to e-mail me so we can exchange numbers and talk man to man. But, for some reason I don think you will.

r_hiedel@yahoo.com

By James Young on Nov 24, 2007

new old cop writes:

“So I guess you are saying something must work perfect before it is put to use. . . . One thing can’t be perfect for every body.”

Nobody ever mentioned perfection. We cannot allow perfection to become the enemy of improvement. The key point is that we have solid, long-term empirical evidence that changes in the tactics, the intensity or the scope of enforcement have no corresponding effect on key safety measures(*). Yet, acting with classic institutional behavior, law enforcement (LE) continues to do the same thing year after year (albeit with cooler new tools that only make the ineffective behavior easier), and the key safety measures continue to improve steadily.

Is that improvement due to the enforcement effort? In word, no, because enforcement effort expands and contracts, “special grants” for temporary programs are provided, new laws are created, and foci change, but none of these have any effect on those key rates, which just keep improving at glacial speed but never go backwards with but two exceptions. The key to that steady improvement is technology, the technology of cars - think radial-ply tires, disc brakes, shatterproof windows, seatbelts, halogen lighting, independent suspension and collapsible steering columns - and the technology of our roads - think breakaway signs, reflective paint on edges and centerline, collapsible barriers, Bott’s dots, rumble-strips, and changeable electronic signage.

The two exceptions, when the rates increased, were 1942 and 1974. What did they share in common? Draconian reductions in speed limits were imposed, albeit for different reasons. However, those two exceptions only go to reinforce the rule.

“Because I was MAN enough to admit what I did was wrong. 79 in a 60 - let me guess, you would you would say it wasn’t your fault.”

That doesn’t make you a man; it makes you a dupe. The fault lies clearly with the political application of below optimal limits, condemning a certain number of people to death and huge numbers to arbitrary loss of assets.

79 in a 60 is not necessarily wrong. Remember when NMSL was in effect and all the limits were 55 mph? Now, over most of the west, those limits are 75 mph and the road is the same. In west Texas, the limit is now 80 mph. What happened to the fatality rate when those limits were suddenly increased? They continued to improve.

“What you ment to say is you got caught doing something wrong and don’t want to pay for it.”

No thanks. I said exactly what I meant to say. The limits are arbitrary and scientific evidence is universally ignored by legislators who do what is politically safe for them rather than what is sound public policy. They’re just a bunch of greedy cowards.

“Here let’s put a little science in it. Let us say that a highway has the design and capability to handle 100 mph. . . . people that would go 10-15-20mph faster then the limit(just like they do now) just cause they want to get to where they want to go even faster etc. etc.”

That’s not science at all; it is a straw man, a typical scenario based in fear-mongering rather than engineering. It is straight out of the IIHS playbook.

“What’s rational to you isn’t rational to everybody.”

Probably not, but we can certainly agree that success can be measured against established criteria. Certainly, we can tell if a speed limit set at the 85th percentile (95th percentile on Interstate-grade roadways) produces a better measure of safety than one set at the 50th percentile. It will, of course, but creates far fewer “speeders” (or, stated conversely, generates greater compliance with the law) so it won’t produce as much money. Keep in mind that money is at the very heart of modern traffic enforcement. If an activity produces lots of cash, it will be continued without regard to its efficacy on the safety measures.

We can also do surveys of public perception of the real intent of enforcement as opposed to the stated or implied intent of enforcement. We use these to measure all kinds of social and actuarial phenomena.
There can be no doubt that behavior that improves measures of public good is rational and behavior that fails to improve those measures or even degrades them is irrational.

“once again the mentality of - “it’s not my fault that I got caught.”"

That’s not the mentality at all. The mentality is that we ought not pursue and punish what does no harm (but does have great value).

“I do reason - I let WAY more go ten I ticket.”

That’s not reasoning; it’s rationalization of personal behavior. What would be reasoned is for you to lobby in the legislature to set all limits at the 85th/95th percentile (urban/rural) and to concentrate on impaired driving, suicide, and impeding rather than picking off the low-hanging fruit of “speeding.”

The law needs to replace the greed of municipalities with reason and science. We already have the information, the techniques and the policies from the engineers; the municipalities and LE just need to implement them.

“Coward?? Nope, not me. I have set up an e-mail address, I invite you to e-mail me so we can exchange numbers and talk man to man. But, for some reason I don think you will.”

LE is a bunch of cowards because they’re afraid of facing facts and reason. Instead, they hide behind meaningless rhetoric in order to justify their institutional existence, protecting that institution at all costs.

Write to me at jamesyoung@alumni.utexas.net

(*) The three key safety measures are the crash-, injury- and fatality rates, each per 100 million VMT. They are currently the best that they have ever been.

By Rural Cop on Nov 25, 2007

Mr. Young,
I can produce studies to counter any other study. A study is done for whoever has more money. There is no such thing as an independent study. Laws are not fool proof. Someone will always feel that they have been done wrong. As LEO’s, we can only base what we have off of experience. Try calling some 16 year olds parents @ 3 a.m. to tell them there kid has been killed because someone was driving drunk, only to find out his BAC is .07. He was only DWI, but on the wrong side of the road. Don’t base an entire theory off of random instances. If that were the case, we would be in a ” Minority Report” society, were you could be arrested for something that you might do.
Also, why not email new old cop instead of posting your own? Looks like you are trying to win a pissing contest.

By James Young on Nov 25, 2007

Rural Cop writes:

“I can produce studies to counter any other study. A study is done for whoever has more money. There is no such thing as an independent study.”

We could quibble all day over what “independent” means and it is a valid observation. However, the test of the validity of the study and the findings is in the peer review process. Do other similar studies produce the same conclusions? Can anybody attack the methodology? Is there bias in the observer(s)?

NHTSA is a horribly biased organization, as evidenced by their rhetoric, their press releases, and the words of their administrators - Claybrook, Martinez, et al. However, their methodology is sound and their samples are huge; in fact, it is the entire population of fatal and injury crashes across the nation. Every single crash is included. The only problem that NHTSA has is that their own figures do not support their own verbiage.

Joan Claybrook claimed that the national increase from 55 to 65 and then later from 65 to complete rescission would result in a “bloodbath” (her words). The limits were changed and the fatality and injury rates kept falling. Claybrook and Ricardo Martinez, who predicted similar results, don’t know what they’re talking about.

I’m more than willing to put up the studies and findings upon which I rely to formulate my opinions against any studies that you can bring forth because I’ve probably already examined those studies and a lot more. Let me warn you away from IIHS (Insurance Institute for Highway Safety) because they are proven liars and they are driven by an agenda rather than by facts or producing sound public policy. Governmental (think GAO) and universities produce the best studies because their reputations depend upon integrity.

“Laws are not fool proof. Someone will always feel that they have been done wrong.”

The issue is that when virtually the entire population of drivers feels that the law is wrong, then it is wrong. Many agencies discovered accidentally in 1974 that they could make a ton of money by aggressive enforcement of the newly imposed NMSL (”55″). That’s when all the chickensh!t little villages of 100 people hired a dozen officers, gave them a radar unit, a badge and a car and said “sic ‘˜em.”

No matter how you try to rationalize it, that’s wrong. It is unethical, unnecessary and generates disrespect for legitimate laws. Even my 80+ year-old mother thinks the cops in the towns between Tulsa and Dallas are “hooligans.” If you’ve lost the WWII generation, you’ve lost America.
This is a very real problem for LE and all of you need to step up to the plate and be responsible. I called LE cowards because they won’t lift a finger to correct the current unethical, greedy, evil status quo.

“As LEO’s, we can only base what we have off of experience.”

Yes, but that experience is far too narrow and institutional to do much good for the rest of society. You cannot just repeat what your brethren say because they don’t know what they’re talking about and the science does not support them. Grow some cajones and question authority. Just because your lieutenant or your captain or the director of public safety says something, that doesn’t make it so.

“Try calling some 16 year olds parents @ 3 a.m. to tell them there kid has been killed because someone was driving drunk, only to find out his BAC is .07. He was only DWI, but on the wrong side of the road.”

First, you don’t make that call; it will come from your captain or, in most places, the medical examiner. 0.07 may or may not be impaired so your scenario is incomplete.

What you all refuse to understand is that your tactics don’t work. Instead of concentrating on the problem drivers - a dozen or so of whom you could likely call out by name - you work checkpoints where you waste resources on people who are not drunk. That’s trolling for impaired drivers. I’m sure that you are aware that drunk drivers involved in fatal crashes - that is, drivers who were impaired and caused a fatal crash - have BAC double or triple the legal limit. Yet, the jails and courts of full of people who blew a 0.08 and their life is turned upside down.

What you need to be doing is working with the legislatures and technical people to prevent the alcoholic from driving. This is the experience in New Mexico, where there is a very high incidence of alcoholism. They have instituted a successful program requiring ignition interlocks, aimed at a very small but very specific population, with great success.

And you should be supporting genetic research into the link between alcoholism and certain gene anomalies. If we can cure the genetic disorders, the impaired driving will virtually disappear.

“Don’t base an entire theory off of random instances”

I’m unsure what you mean here. My opinions have been formulated over 50 years of reading, observation and study and are driven by the science rather than by the economics or social platitudes.

“Also, why not email new old cop instead of posting your own? Looks like you are trying to win a pissing contest.”

I post it publicly because this is a public debate and many others should see what there is out there that is not driven by an institutional agenda. Insurance companies are lying to us; LE is lying to us; NHTSA is lying to us; MADD, SADD and their neo-prohibition cohorts are lying to us; politicians are lying to us. The truth is easy to find but hard to translate into public policy because traffic enforcement is a $100 billion a year industry and all those sucking from that teat want to protect their cash cow without regard to the damage that they cause.

By a new old cop on Nov 26, 2007

James Young writes:

“Yet, acting with classic institutional behavior, law enforcement (LE) continues to do the same thing year after year”

And it seems your are doing the same thing year after year also. I don’t see any of your ideas put into law. If THE PEOPLE really wanted it changed, they would ALL put their voice to use.

“That doesn’t make you a man; it makes you a dupe.”

How childish of you. I won’t even go there.

“79 in a 60 is not necessarily wrong.”

Let me guess, you don’t think that speeding in a school zone is necessarily wrong either. I could of done 120+ on my bike weaving in and out of traffic and be in control of my vehicle. Until some driver doing one of the multiple thing they do wrong got in my way that would make me crash. And then you get the common excuse of “I didn’t see him”.

I stopped a vehicle the other day for doing 93 in a 70. The ground was wet and cold. He passed some cars at a 25-30 mph difference. when I stopped him, I found out he was 16. What was his reason for the speed, he wasn’t paying attention because he didn’t have cruise control. I am willing to bet you think I should of just told a 16 year old to slow down and think about what he is doing then just let him go. Well, I did just that, along with a ticket.

“In west Texas, the limit is now 80 mph. What happened to the fatality rate when those limits were suddenly increased? They continued to improve.”

Don’t try and fool yourself or the general public with YOUR lies. Do you really believe that the fatality rate improved because of an increased speed limit??? I think you need to give FULL credit to the car manufactures and their safety standards…NOT an increase in the speed limit.

On some of those roads it wouldn’t matter what the limit was, there is hardly any traffic. For that matter you might be lucky to see one car in an half hour. Yes, I feel that the limit could be greatly increased. At that point, what we in the motorcycling community call the Darwin Award comes into play.

“The limits are arbitrary and scientific evidence is universally ignored by legislators who do what is politically safe for them rather than what is sound public policy.”

Once again, MORE OF YOUR LIES. If it was such a “sound public policy”, then the legislators would feel safe in changing it.

“That’s not science at all; it is a straw man, a typical scenario based in fear-mongering rather than engineering.”

Once again, LIE. Like I said, if the road was “engineered” to that speed, ALL the facts that I stated, and I have more, would come into play.

“Probably not, but we can certainly agree that success can be measured against established criteria. Certainly, we can tell if a speed limit set at the 85th percentile (95th percentile on Interstate-grade roadways) produces a better measure of safety than one set at the 50th percentile. It will, of course, but creates far fewer “speeders” (or, stated conversely, generates greater compliance with the law) so it won’t produce as much money. Keep in mind that money is at the very heart of modern traffic enforcement. If an activity produces lots of cash, it will be continued without regard to its efficacy on the safety measures.”

When you move a line, people are going to move with it. It will be the same scenario that it is now. It’s human nature to push the envelope. Sometimes when the envelope breaks…bad things happen. That is a proven fact. Pushing the envelope with the right things can also have a good effect. You are not going to convince me that raising the speed limit above 80mph (my state is 70mph) would have good results. Kinetic energy can have a devastating result on the human body.

“That’s not the mentality at all. The mentality is that we ought not pursue and punish what does no harm (but does have great value).”

Having a crack house next door doesn’t harm you either. His business is his business right? It has a great value to him.

“That’s not reasoning; it’s rationalization of personal behavior. What would be reasoned is for you to lobby in the legislature to set all limits at the 85th/95th percentile (urban/rural) and to concentrate on impaired driving, suicide, and impeding rather than picking off the low-hanging fruit of “speeding.”

Even before I became a cop I had no problem with the limits. When I was younger though, I did have your self centered attitude, “It’s not my fault, me me me”. So yes, I have rationalized my behavior for not needing to do anymore then 5-10mph above the “limit”. I have no need to lobby.

Now on to your concentrating on impaired driving. Once again you LIE AND CONTRADICT yourself. Above you say we need to concentrate on impaired driving. Below you say…….”you work checkpoints where you waste resources on people who are not drunk. That’s trolling for impaired drivers. I’m sure that you are aware that drunk drivers involved in fatal crashes - that is, drivers who were impaired and caused a fatal crash - have BAC double or triple the legal limit. Yet, the jails and courts of full of people who blew a 0.08 and their life is turned upside down.”……so which one is it??? Do YOU want us to the impaired driver or not???

“What you need to be doing is working with the legislatures and technical people to prevent the alcoholic from driving. This is the experience in New Mexico, where there is a very high incidence of alcoholism. They have instituted a successful program requiring ignition interlocks, aimed at a very small but very specific population, with great success.”

That is the problem, it’s not just the “alcoholics” that drink and drive. How many times do you think they get charged with DWI before they get the interlock?? It’s not just one or two.

“My opinions have been formulated over 50 years of reading, observation and study and are driven by the science rather than by the economics or social platitudes.”

For 50 years you have been trying to change the limits, and you have been able to get noting accomplished. That tells me you don’t really have support of all your so called rational citizens.

“LE is a bunch of cowards because they’re afraid of facing facts and reason. Instead, they hide behind meaningless rhetoric in order to justify their institutional existence, protecting that institution at all costs.

Write to me at jamesyoung@alumni.utexas.net”

I knew you wouldn’t do it. That just let’s all the people know who the real coward is. I would like to talk to you in person. But you want to be the internet ninja and hide behind a keyboard. I will use your words…Grow some cajones and e-mail me. I would like to personally hear some of your ideas, and I would like to share with you some of mine.

By Rural Cop on Nov 26, 2007

“We could quibble all day over what “independent” means and it is a valid observation. However, the test of the validity of the study and the findings is in the peer review process. Do other similar studies produce the same conclusions? Can anybody attack the methodology? Is there bias in the observer(s)?”

As long as the human factor is involved, there will be bias.

“First, you don’t make that call; it will come from your captain or, in most places, the medical examiner. 0.07 may or may not be impaired so your scenario is incomplete.”

Yours is too. Besides a “screen name”, you have no idea who I am. That is like me saying that based on your email address you spend you entire day sitting behind a computer at a major university spending not only tax dollars, but also someone elses hard earned money, all under the impression that someone else is receiving a higher education.

My statement: “Don’t base an entire theory off of random instances”

Your response: “I’m unsure what you mean here. My opinions have been formulated over 50 years of reading, observation and study and are driven by the science rather than by the economics or social platitudes.”

No two accidents are the same. You could study every report published, and there are random undocumented instances that were left out because the person documenting the incident was not there (the majority of the time).

By a new old cop on Nov 26, 2007

James Young writes:

“The issue is that when virtually the entire population of drivers feels that the law is wrong, then it is wrong.”

If virtually all the population thought it was wrong, then their voice would be heard. I think you are the one in the minority.

“Even my 80+ year-old mother…”

. You say you have been reading and studying this stuff for 50 years. That would put you about 68-70 years old “IF” you started it at 18-20. You are one bitter old man to be trying to change the limits for 50 years and still have nothing changed. Or, you are inflating your years of study to make yourself look better.

“driven by the science”

You say that a lot. Sometimes when it comes down to real world practical use, it doesn’t work.

“I post it publicly because this is a public debate and many others should see what there is out there that is not driven by an institutional agenda.”

Yes you posted your e-mail publicly…blah . What does that have to do with you e-mailing me so we can exchange numbers?? You have “some” ideas I like and have already been putting to use while I am running radar. I have some questions and points for you that I would like to discuss in person.

Are you not an institution yourself trying to push an agenda?

By James Young on Nov 27, 2007

new old cop writes:

“And it seems your are doing the same thing year after year also. I don’t see any of your ideas put into law. If THE PEOPLE really wanted it changed, they would ALL put their voice to use.”

We got the NMSL increased to 65 mph and then rescinded completely. The truth of this is that after those increases went into effect, the key safety measures kept right on improving and the predicted “bloodbath” did not occur. We were right and IIHS, NHTSA, AAA and LE agencies everywhere were wrong. Our ideas are indeed law.

There has never been a vote on a speed limit change in any state, nor in any major city of which I am aware. People do their protesting with their right foot, ignoring speed limit signs with quiet disdain. But I am quite pleased with the number of posts here that have expressed doubt about current law and LE practice

Lobbying legislators is even more difficult. My cohorts and I have been refused admission to legislators’ offices in OK, TX and CA because we had not contributed to their election campaigns. Yet, those same legislators will receive insurance industry lobbyists because they have donated millions. When your industry is worth about $100 billion a year, a few million in protection is nothing. So, legislators hear only agenda-driven, frequently false rhetoric from biased sources. IIHS, for example, has been exposed as deliberate liars, manufacturing data for several of their “studies.” Oh, yes, and they listen to LE agencies who lobby frequently, all paid for by public funds.

Tell me once again where the justice is.

“79 in a 60 is not necessarily wrong.” — JY

“Let me guess, you don’t think that speeding in a school zone is necessarily wrong either.”

You guess wrong. However, your answer conflating highway speeds with school zones was very predictable. There is a cop in NY that uses this tactic frequently on two national boards and he truly believes that there are school zones on Interstate highways. Now, tell me what school zone is active on an Interstate highway north of San Diego at 1 AM because that’s where I saw a couple of Chippies last week, running their radar.

Note that the limit on I-10 across west Texas used to be 55 mph but speeds were commonly 90+, so 93 in a 60 is perfectly reasonable. The limit is now 80, so 93 is nothing. I was also passed a few months ago by a gray-hair in a Town Car doing about a buck fifteen across Wyoming. Perfectly reasonable.

“I stopped a vehicle the other day for doing 93 in a 70 [under adverse conditions.]

I don’t have a problem with stopping problematic drivers, in fact, I encourage LEOs to concentrate on this rather than nabbing the guy doing 50 in a 45, which is the sine qua non of the speedtraps listed in this site. Yet, the overwhelming majority of citations are for speeding, not speed unsafe for conditions. We don’t know for certain the exact distribution of speed for which citations are issued because LE agencies keep this hidden. Texas DPS calls this data “proprietary” even though it is gathered by public employees with public resources. We do have some idea that the curve normalizes over the +8 to +10 mph range from the response that the Texas DPS was forced to give in a racial profiling court case brought by the US DOJ. If LE has nothing to hide, why don’t they publish the raw data on the Internet?

“In west Texas, the limit is now 80 mph. What happened to the fatality rate when those limits were suddenly increased? They continued to improve.” — JY

“Don’t try and fool yourself or the general public with YOUR lies. Do you really believe that the fatality rate improved because of an increased speed limit??? I think you need to give FULL credit to the car manufactures and their safety standards - NOT an increase in the speed limit.”

Well, that “lie” just happens to be true. First, the original argument brought by the safety cabal was that increased speeds would result in more deaths and a higher fatality rate. That assertion is false because increased speeds do not result in more deaths or higher fatality rates.

The argument that increased **speed limits** result in fewer fatalities and fatality rates is more sophisticated but nonetheless true within the ranges that currently obtain on American highways. Remember that 85th and 95th percentile rule that engineers use to calculate where speed limits should be set? The importance of those two markers is that they correspond to the point on the crash incidence curve where it *minimizes.* This curve looks like a flattened elongated backwards “J” where crashes decrease with increases in speeds up to a point and then increase with increases in speeds. When that curve is overlaid onto the speed distribution curve, that magic point happens time after time after time (so often that it is an engineering standard) at the 85th percentile for urban roads and the 95th percentile for rural and Interstate roads.
Therefore, when speed limits are set near the correct percentile, speed differential and crashes decrease. As a contrast, examine the Montana experience after rescission of NMSL. Their limit became R&P, i.e., no limit other than good judgment. Montana HP wrote citations for, say, 100 mph and the drivers took it to court and won because 100 was, in fact, reasonable for Montana highways. So, Montana instituted a limit of 75 mph to provide the digital division that the law requires to work, e.g., 74.99999 mph is legal but 75.00001 is illegal even though the difference is indiscernible to even a trained eye. The result? Montana’s crashes and fatalities increased after the limit was implemented.

The truth is sometimes right in plain sight but we’re so blind that we refuse to see it because it undermines our very conceptions of life.

“The limits are arbitrary and scientific evidence is universally ignored by legislators who do what is politically safe for them rather than what is sound public policy.” — JY

“Once again, MORE OF YOUR LIES. If it was such a “sound public policy”, then the legislators would feel safe in changing it.” — NOC

You really don’t have a solid concept of what a lie is. A lie is uttering or writing a known-false assertion with intent to deceive. Not only is my assertion not meant to deceive but it is true. Legislators ignore the engineers and the scientists and set arbitrary limits based on what they can do that will not bring unwanted examination or criticism of them. A few years ago, Minnesota DOT suggested that the state maximum limit be set at 70 mph (still below the 95th percentile) but some yahoo legislator was crying tears and blubbering that “But 55 is just so fast.” So they left the limit where it was, condemning hundreds of people to early death (remember that decreasing crash incidence curve), but they were safe because not doing something has no consequences for them but, had they raised the limit and a couple of spectacular crashes occurred shortly after, they would be blamed (or so they think).

“Once again, LIE. Like I said, if the road was “engineered” to that speed, ALL the facts that I stated, and I have more, would come into play.” — NOC

Amazing how all those “lies” turn out to be solid truth. Our earliest Interstates were engineered with a design speed of 100 mph. . .in a 1950s era car! Current design speeds vary, of course, but extant western Interstates can handle 200 mph in places.

However, the issue is not with their design speed but with your assertion that “people that would go 10-15-20mph faster then the limit(just like they do now).” That is empirically false as shown by Parker in about 1995. Take an extreme case: the limit is raised to 175 mph. Per your assertion, people would then be driving 185 to 195 mph, which is absurd on its face.
“You are not going to convince me that raising the speed limit above 80mph (my state is 70mph) would have good results. Kinetic energy can have a devastating result on the human body.”

Ah, the old appeal to physics. Trite & irrelevant. Kinetic energy does not apply to crashes that don’t happen and much of our technology is aimed at mitigating kinetic energy.

It is not up to me to convince you of anything. I’ll let the evidence speak for itself.

“Having a crack house next door doesn’t harm you either. His business is his business right? It has a great value to him.”

Of course it harms me. However, consider that were drugs decriminalized and provided free to all who accept medical intervention, the greater harm of the “War on Drugs’ would evaporate.

Speed limits are not benign creatures without consequences. Setting the limit at 55 mph cost America just over a trillion dollars (yes, with a “T”) in lost productivity, increased crash and fatality rates (remember 1974), and immeasurable contempt for law enforcement.

“Even before I became a cop I had no problem with the limits. When I was younger though, I did have your self centered attitude, “It’s not my fault, me me me”. So yes, I have rationalized my behavior for not needing to do anymore then 5-10mph above the “limit”. I have no need to lobby.”

This is not about me or even me getting to drive faster. Were limits set at, say R&P, I would still travel at the same speed I do now. The benefit would accrue to socieity as a whole because the economic consequences of limits would no longer affect us.

Perhaps you have no “need” to lobby but you do have a responsibility to stand up for solid science and engineering principles as a basis for law. We recruited you; we trained you; we equipped you; we commissioned you; we authorized you to use even deadly force in your duties. Therefore, you have a responsibility to speak up for reason; you owe it to society. The current situation with speedtraps as common as mosquitoes is not reasonable but, instead of speaking up, you just continue to write your silly little citations, fooling yourself into thinking that you’re doing something valuable. It’s time for a little introspection.

“so which one is it??? Do YOU want us to the impaired driver or not???”

I thought the distinction was sufficiently clear. Checkpoints are not effective measures against the target population, at least the should-be target. Notice the key word “trolling.”

I want you to use effective methods of targeting truly impaired drivers - whether by alcohol, drugs, sleep deprivation, or mental illness - rather than wide-net trolling a much larger population in hopes of nabbing somebody, rather like dragging a landing net behind your boat in hopes of catching ol’ granddad lunker.

“That is the problem, it’s not just the “alcoholics” that drink and drive. How many times do you think they get charged with DWI before they get the interlock?? It’s not just one or two.”

But it is the alcoholics who cause the majority of the problem. Remember, the overwhelming majority of fatal crashes **caused** by drunk drivers are double or triple the legal limit. Those are the people we should concentrate on, not Suzy Secretary with her ½ beer. If you house is on fire, you don’t spray all your water on the lawn because it’s easier.

“My opinions have been formulated over 50 years of reading, observation and study and are driven by the science rather than by the economics or social platitudes.” — JY

“For 50 years you have been trying to change the limits, and you have been able to get noting accomplished. That tells me you don’t really have support of all your so called rational citizens.”

Au contraire. Speed limits have been increased at least twice, sometimes more, due to our efforts. From 55 mph to 80 mph is spelled SUCCESS. Oh, and we were right as well. Speed limits increase, productivity increased, crashes, injuries and deaths declined. What more do you want?

“I knew you wouldn’t do it. That just let’s all the people know who the real coward is. I would like to talk to you in person.”

Then call me at 918-381-1604. I’m in the Pacific time zone.

This is not about talking person to person because all the readers should share the experience and exposure, like sunlight, is a great antiseptic. To coin an old cop phrase, if you’ve said nothing stupid, you have nothing to fear.

“But you want to be the internet ninja and hide behind a keyboard. I will use your words: