Police Officer Gives Himself $21,000 Raise Using Stop Sign Tickets
July 18th, 2008 Posted in Traffic Tickets
A recent article by John Stossel examined a Michigan police officer’s penchant for giving out stop sign tickets as a means of increasing his income.
Day after day in Warren, Mich., people wait in a long line to pay traffic fines. Many are there because police say they didn’t come to a full stop at a stop sign. Often the policeman saying that is Officer David Kanapsky.
On last week’s “20/20,” you heard a motorist in court insist that she did come to a complete stop. The judge replied, as judges there often do: “I find Officer Kanapsky’s testimony to be credible. He is an unbiased witness.”
But the officer is not really unbiased. The more tickets he writes, the more overtime he gets. Last year, Kanapsky spent so much time in court he increased his pay by $21,000. Rolling through a stop sign in Michigan puts two points on your driving record. That hikes your car insurance premium. Fighting the ticket could cost even more. So to avoid the points and legal fees, most people plead guilty to a lesser offense: impeding traffic. The court sounds like an assembly line, ” … no points … $135 … “
Last year, the town made half a million dollars from such fines. Some drivers told us it “seems like a moneymaking scam.”
The city denies it, but Stossel is skeptical:
[Police Commissioner William] Dwyer denied the tickets were a moneymaking scam. He said he didn’t think it odd that Kanapsky wrote thousands of tickets. “It’s not unusual for a traffic officer to write 10 to 20 traffic violations a day, if not more.”
Please. I’m all for highway safety, but I suspect that America’s roads have too many rules, and that gives cops too much arbitrary power to harass people or profit off them. As the ancient Chinese philosopher Lao-Tse said, “The more laws that are written, the more criminals are produced”.
At the end of the article, Stossel references recent accident statistics that poke holes in the “it’s for safety” argument:
Remember the stop sign in Warren, Mich., where Kanapsky wrote many of his tickets? It’s been changed to a yield sign. One result: fewer accidents.
Police say, “[B]etween Jan. 16, 2008, and May 21, 2008, there have been no accidents reported. During that same time frame in 2007, there were four crashes reported.” Good. Let’s get rid of more signs.
And to all the cops who eagerly punish us for doing what they do, give me a break.
You can view the report from the local news station that originally broke this story below:
Additional Note: In November of last year, the city of Warren made our list of the worst speed trap cities in the United States.
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I just read this statement above:
“Remember the stop sign in Warren, Mich., where Kanapsky wrote many of his tickets? It’s been changed to a yield sign. One result: fewer accidents.
Police say, “[B]etween Jan. 16, 2008, and May 21, 2008, there have been no accidents reported. During that same time frame in 2007, there were four crashes reported.” Good. Let’s get rid of more signs.
And to all the cops who eagerly punish us for doing what they do, give me a break.”
What a joke. This site is very good at promoting things that mean nothing and try to make them into something.
Accident rates at one location during the winter months means very little. It is said that the accident rate went from 4 accidents down to 0 accidents for the same few week period in the winter season. It could mean as little as having an ice storm one winter and not the next. You have to be kidding if those kinds of statistics mean anthing.
You’re only replying that way because you’ve never been unjustly accused of something you didn’t do. The officers in Warren, MI are trying to up their pay, and they have done worse things than writing unnecessary speeding tickets! If you’ve never been a victim of it, what would you know about it?
africkin american you say that everyone should be driving 80+ mph to make it safer so that everyone is driving the same speed. That is not going to happen. So if you are going to have many trucks and many cars driving 10 to 20 mph slower than that it would only make sense for the “fast drivers” to slow down to a more consistent speed. You blame the slow drivers for problems but it is the 80 mph to 85 mph default driver that causes as much and sometimes more problems. Weaving through traffic as you say. Also you say that the slow drivers need to keep right. There are 100s of thousands of interstate miles that have only 2 lanes. There will be 60 mph to 65 mph cars and trucks on the road along with cars and trucks driving 70 mph. Where does that leave vehicles that are driving 80 mph to 85 mph? I will tell you if you do not know. Weaving through traffic and tailgating.
2,842 soles; that would mean 1,421 people
assuming each person has two shoes, right?
From a guy with 18 years of big city and OTR driving — and whose default highway speed is 80-85:
1) what speed is “safe” is depends on the driver and the conditions. I know the State can ill tolerate individual differences among people, but the fact is some folks simply are capable of driving faster than others. Everybody is not a newly-minted 16-year-old driver or an 80-year-old great gramma, or a distracted soccer mom with four kids in the back of the van. Road conditions vary depending on weather, etc., and it’s best that each individual driver exercise the judgment to deal with those conditions as they arise. Not to slap on everybody unrealistic speed limits made more for 16-year-olds or 80-year-olds than for the majority of the population.
2) “Speed kills” only if you collide with something.
You’re not likely to collide with something when you’re on open road in good conditions — or even in heavy traffic, as long as it’s of uniform speed. If everyone’s going 80, you can’t hit each other.
You’re a lot more likely to collide with somebody driving more slowly.
It’s far safer to have at least one lane where everybody’s at high speed, than forcing faster drivers to weave through several lanes of vehicles all going a hodgepodge of speeds.
Every driver knows how cool it feels when traffic is flowing at the same speed. It’s almost a mystical oneness with the other vehicles.
Then you see it coming up ahead. One idiot is sitting in the fast lane doing 60 and another’s in the middle lane doing the same. They could easily be over in the right lane, but simply don’t have the consideration to do so. It spoils everything. Suddenly, you either have to slam on the brakes or do some fancy ducking and weaving — and *that’s* where accidents happen.
Smooth unimpeded traffic flow, at whatever speed, is not only safe but is the most logical and efficient way to use a roadway — rather than having a mile-long clump of traffic here, then a mile of open (i.e., wasted) road, then another clump and so on. Roads are often likened to arteries. When this sort of thing happens in your literal arteries, you’re gonna be treated to a “grabber” real quick.
The answer to this is bringing back — and enforcing — the concept of fast and slow lanes. My dad, who never had an accident in his life, taught me on my first long-distance trip at the age of 17. How hard would it be to have signage designating one (or more) lanes as 65 mph, and another as 75+? Or simply more of what we already have: “Slower Traffic Keep Right” and “Left Lane For Passing Only”?
Just as in any other sector of life, it’s foolish to tell people how fast they can or can’t move. Let the slow be slow. Let those who can, go faster. I have concluded that the national speed limit policy, whatever the pretexts under which it was instituted, is kept in place simply as a handy way to instill fear, self-limiting behavior and conformity to arbitrary dictates on the roadways and off. It is those of us who are more individualistic who *are* more likely to speed. So the law covertly targets individuals and free-thinkers and marks us for punishment. That’s why I recently suggested over on another blog that if people want to overthrow tyrannical government, they should start with disregarding ridiculous and petty laws — such as many traffic regulations — whenever the deem it possible and wise to do so.
[...] it wasn’t until someone drew my attention to this link that I understood the full extent of what this whole racket is about. Yes, it’s about money. [...]
A little off-topic, but I have on more than one occasion been blown off by 911. In fact I’m to the point now that unless it’s a medical emergency, I won’t bother.
The most recent occurrence a few months ago, I’m in my house watching TV when I notice the police chopper overhead and a bunch of flashing lights outside. Then the unmistakable sound of someone hopping the fence and tripping over my AC unit.
I called 911 to report that the person the police are chasing is in my yard. I offered to lock my dogs inside and let the officers into the yard.
The 911 dispatcher would have none of that; she asked me to go outside to get a description of the person!
I just let the dogs out and the guy hopped back over the fence.
You’re so right! It’s awful! Some guy was following me one day, and I called the police. The operator told me the guy was a security guard from the mall! How would she know who he was? I hadn’t even described him to her, and she asked me what color I was! What does that have to do with some scuzzball trying to harass me? It was on Easter Sunday last year! I should have sued them, but….
The person who told you to go “F” yourself should be FIRED.
Every 911 call should be answered to the best of the department’s ability. We are almost always required to answer them all. I understand some departments are busy, but a real and confirmed call MUST be answered.
I’ve seen this kind of attitude before in some agencies. Unless these people are weeded out they will continue to dilute the image of the majority of law enforcement.
Randy writes: {Adam it seems to me if you are afraid of the cops you must be breaking the law. I am sure you do not care if every store is robbed daily in the US or you have total drunks on the road every day.}
What a crock of shit. We know that we cannot depend on LEOs to provide protection. In harsher terms, our personal security is up to us. I no longer trust the police and they have given lots of reasons for me not to trust them. Cops do not prevent stores from being robbed but only complete reports after they are robbed. Similarly, cops don’t and cannot keep drunks off the road and have focused their anti-drunk-driving on PR campaigns and collecting lots of money. Now, no doubt, many cops are sincerely motivated by a desire to reduce drunk driving but the system is a failure.
I no longer labor under the delusion that the cops are there to help me. This was brought home very dramatically on 4/29/1992, when the hotel that I was managing was threatened with fire-bombing (back-to-back-to back calls). 911 told us to go F’ ourselves; they were busy. So, we did it ourselves; we protected the building, the guests and the employees; no injuries, one small fire put out immediately. Only when LAPD learned that we had some CBS network executives in house (2 days later) did they send somebody out. Yep, it’s all about the protection.
No, I’m only afraid that the cops are out of control and it’s time for the citizens to reel them in.
“Enforcing man-made laws creates injustice and insecurity as people whom have not caused any harm”…………………………………
What other kinds of laws are there and who created them??
As for not harming anyone, you must be kidding? You truly believe the stop sign/ red light ticket should be reserved ONLY for the person who injures, kills or just damages someone else’s property? Let’s think about obeying the man made law that stated when you fail to stop at the red light you get a ticket because when you take chances like that you take on the responsibility not just for yourself, but someone who is doing what there suppose to do.
Nemo,
“Hey traffic cop, Do a better job? Wow its real hard to do what you do?”……………………..
Are you referring to me? If you are, you have no idea what I do or how difficult my job is.
High School Dropout………………………….
Once AGAIN, nice stereotype. I think I’ll go back to beauty school.
Adam,
however, crime prevention is due to the private sector: locks, alarm systems, and the like.This is what prevents crimes from taking place……………………………….
Locks and alarms? Criminals are afraid of being caught and prosecuted not the size of your deadbolt or decibels of your alarms. Your argument doesn’t hold water. Locks and alarms mean nothing IF there is no one to respond. They break the lock, ignore the alarm.
The police aren’t so hot at prosecuting crime either………………………..
This is an unsupported opinion.
but for people who commit crimes like slowing down at three-way stops…………………………..
Motor vehicle offenses are NOT crimes. That aside, everything is fine, until the guy who slows down, instead of stopping slams into your family member. At that point you’ll want his head!
when it comes right down to it on the particulars, we can’t stand the police. We keep a constant lookout for them when we drive. We dread being pulled over. We know in our hearts that they are out to get us, and represent more of a threat than a security for our freedoms…………………………………….
Did you read this statement out loud to yourself before you typed it? I’m not being wise, it sounds very paranoid. I drive all the time and do not worry about the police NOR do I get stopped giving me the chance to “flash” my badge. It’s not that hard! If I had to guess I believe there are hundreds of thousands of people who’ve never been stopped. What they all have in common is that they stay within the boundaries of acceptable driving habits.
In the end many posters here need to differentiate between traffic cops and patrol cops. More than likely it’s the traffic cops you don’t like. As in EVERY profession there are good and bad people. Everyone knows the guy/gal at the office you don’t like. Police work is no different. The bad apples aside, the traffic aspect of police work is an important function. I’ve met many people who are glad to see the “idiot” driver get pulled over. There can’t be a free for all on the roadways allowing everyone to do as they please. Drivers are going to get tickets, some good, some bad. No one expects everyone to follow all of the laws exactly, BUT the people who don’t want ANYONE telling them how they can operate their vehicles on SHARED roadways are going to have to come to the realization you’re never going to change or abolish the traffic codes.
Adam it seems to me if you are afraid of the cops you must be breaking the law. I am sure you do not care if every store is robbed daily in the US or you have total drunks on the road every day.
The case of Officer Kanapsky raises fundamental questions not only about federal labor law but also about the role of the police in any community. Do they really stop crime? Sure, they arrive after a crime has been committed; they take fingerprints (those only seem to work in the movies) and file reports. In real life, however, crime prevention is due to the private sector: locks, alarm systems, and the like.This is what prevents crimes from taking place.
The police aren’t so hot at prosecuting crime either, but for people who commit crimes like slowing down at three-way stops. Yet we are all somehow under the illusion that the police are the reason we are safe. It is the core mythology of our civic religion.
If you do believe that they do more good than harm, consider the unseen costs. What kind of private alternatives are being crowded out by the very presence of the police?
It is also deeply troubling that most people believe there aren’t too many police but too few. How many are too many? What if one in three people were a cop? One in two? Maybe we should have two cops for every one civilian. How safe we would be! Really, there is an ethos in this country that you can never have too many cops on the street, and the idea of hiring more nearly always garners public support.
And yet, when it comes right down to it on the particulars, we can’t stand the police. We keep a constant lookout for them when we drive. We dread being pulled over. We know in our hearts that they are out to get us, and represent more of a threat than a security for our freedoms.
In the end, we need to realize that the police are like all other government employees: self-interested, living off tax dollars, parasitical on our liberties. The case of Officer Kanapsky shows precisely how and why.
We got Nazis down here in Tampa as well
[Name removed] is a HCSO jackass ticket writing machine!
Judging by his behavior, he would rather write a ticket than actually help someone … helping someone doesn’t bring in the bucks and it apparently doesn’t thrill his dead soul either …
that’s ok, what goes around … comes around.
Believe that! Karma never fails.
Who knows how many times I have seen a stranded motorist on the side of the road, yet watched a COP just pass on by, because they are too lazy to get out and help someone.
The problem is most COPS are HIGH SCHOOL DROPOUTS and have little intelligence and a huge chip on their shoulders and are pissed off at the world, like we owe them some kind of respect because they are a cop.
Who is the criminal? Not the guy peddeling small quantities of pot! It’s the COP that pulls him over and takes him to jail, but only reports half the pot, because him and his COP buddies smoked the rest!!!
This cop is nothing but a filthy, greedy, slob who abuses his power and hides behind a “badge”. Cops are the last people to help anyone these days. Greedy bastard…I’m so glad I left the oppression of that state. Not that the “police state” does not exist elsewhere. Time to reign in these creeps.
Here in NM we are learning how to do traffic tickets and zoning, pro se. Some people who have won at the state supreme court are teaching others how to follow the rules and win. They have gotten rid of some judges here.
Over $86k a year, that obviously buys a LOT of doughnuts…
Many of you have noted what the entire problem is in your posts, without even realizing it.
Once upon a time we had peace officers in this country. Their job was to ensure that people and property were safe and that everyone worked to get along.
Today we have Law Enforcement Officers. The job of an LEO is to enforce the law, period. An LEO is always looking for someone breaking a law, any law, no matter how ridiculous or whether enforcing that law contributes to the peace and safety of society.
LEOs use their authority as a weapon, and if that weapon isn’t enough they will use actual weapons. Tanks, automatic rifles, sniper rifles, tear gas, shotguns, and on and on.
Since there are so many laws on the books today it is fairly certain that everyone is a law breaker so the LEO can find some excuse to target anyone they desire for any reason.
The purpose of all of this is to create a police state in which all live in fear and submit to the authority of the government.
It seems this is what many desire, especially those that work within government. It is doubtful that we will ever return to a sane and peaceful society again without a complete collapse of the system as it exists.
[...] it wasn’t until someone drew my attention to this link that I understood the full extent of what this whole racket is about. Yes, it’s about money. [...]
I was on the I-25 outside Denver during rush hour and constantly had other cars pull in close in front of me that it was, imo, dangerous. But hey, it was rush hour and no different from rush hour anywhere else. A cop pulled me for traveling to close to the car in front which had just put me into that position.
Went to court, and the officer testified that I was traveling to close. When it was my turn to question him I asked him to read the statute which stated that my supposed offense could only be proven by an accident.
Judge read me the riot act. But the statute is what it is.
Case was dismissed.
Replace all stop signs with yield signs, problem solved. Cops can now focus on real crimes/criminals. Also, eliminate speed limits entirely, you don’t really need a highway patrol at all anymore, and the roads are just as safe because everyone already speeds and rolls stop signs.
Hey traffic cop, Do a better job? Wow its real hard to do what you do? All we as the public ask is that you be honest, upright, etc, but you can’t do that because you work for government.
[...] David Kanapsky Check this out. Maybe I should become a cop. __________________ [...]
The purpose of Law Enforcement is to instill obedience among the masses (the ruled) to laws created by law-makers (the rulers). Enforcing obedience to laws is rationalized by rulers as being necessary to maintain order (as if they emanated from chaos) among the ruled. Leaving that intellectually challenged self-righteous assumption aside, it is clear that obedience should not to be confused with justice or security.
The purpose of justice is to correct wrongs. The purpose of security is to protect people and property. Enforcing man-made laws creates injustice and insecurity as people whom have not caused any harm are robbed of their property by legalized force. On the other hand, people whom have caused harm to persons and property may go free if “the law” or its monopoly enforcers “interpret” the laws as allowing such. The system itself is corrupt and it is unreasonable to expect imperfect humans to act otherwise within that system. The only reason people respect this immoral system is indoctrination and fear.
More laws and more enforcement leads to less justice and less security. The tyranny inherent in a law enforcement social system eventually leads to social chaos as the number of laws and the weight of enforcement becomes unbearable.
It’s said that corporeal punishment, when meted out via cane or whip, rearranges the brain’s neural pathways. Serious. I believe it’s after the 5th lash that actual realization bestows itself in the eyes of the offender. By the 25th he’s a born-again true believer in the adage “do unto others as you would have….”. First get the fat bastard and then the judge.
The ancient Vikings couldn’t have agreed more (while they were busy plundering!).
Once again, there should be a middle ground.
Cornelius Tacitus, the Roman historian, claimed that the more …
The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws. -Cornelius Tacitus, Roman historian. Epictetus, Lucius Annaeus Seneca, Gaius Plinius Cecilius …
http://www.unique-design.net/library/quote/tacitus.html – 6k
When is Illinois going to raise the freeway speed limit to 70mph, just as it was pre-1974? The 65/55 limits they have now are a joke – nobody is driving that slow.
LJ,
I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, I just wanted to let the people here know that there are MANY legitimate reasons police turn on their lights, then turn them off.
If you think about your example it seems a little bizarre that a cop would run lights/siren just to get a cup of coffee? There are so many things that could go wrong while he was doing it.
It’s as if I needed to go cash my pay check and I drove lights/siren/double the speed limit just to get to the bank? For what purpose? I’m sure someone, somewhere may be doing it, though it’s the minority. In my fifteen years I’ve seen it a few times. Not nearly as many as some believe. I had the opportunity to know where they were going or ask what was going on so I have first hand knowledge from my experience.
What enforcement does:
http://www.illinois.gov/PressReleases/ShowPressRelease.cfm?SubjectID=1&RecNum=6445
James Young writes:
“Traffic Cop: There is no correlation between the intensity of enforcement and key traffic safety measures. ZERO. Enforcement intensity goes up and down. Key safety measures do not change with changes in enforcement.”
You are flat out wrong James.
With the enforcement of seatbelt laws thousands of more people have started wearing their seatbelts. This has saved hundreds of lives.
Drinking and driving is being slowed down with roadblocks on the weekends. People know that if they drink and drive there is a good chance they will be caught and prosecuted. That believe it or not has slowed down many people from drinking and driving.
During Holidays around here they have strict enforcement of speeding laws and advertise police every 10 miles. That has slowed down traffic and the number of deaths on the highways during those periods have gone down.
I am sure you will say that none of the above are true but you would be wrong.
Driving speed limit (35 mph),police car unit # 365 goes by me with lights and sireno doing at least 60-70,I see car turn into Circle K,I do the same.Inside a Sgt and a Lt. are having a cup of coffee.
Define emergency for me.
Quote: By LJ. McGaha on Jul 25, 2008
Joe
Please go back and read my post again pertaining to whether or not cop is responding to a call. If I’m doing the speed limit in a 35mph zone and a police car comes past me, going like a bat out of hell and a mile away I see him stopped behind other traffic at a light, he ain’t on no call.
———————————–
LJ, I regularly (everyday) turn my lights/siren on, move through traffic, then turn them off just up the road for this reason:
We are required to respond to certain calls lights/siren, but as the situation changes so too must our response. The situation may not be the same as initially reported, another car may have arrived and advised a “slower response”, a second car may arrive as back up before you therefore you change your response.
The important idea is ALL officers should constantly evaluate their need to respond to whatever call they are going based on information which trickles in as the incident is on-going.
My partners and I used to pull out of traffic and hide after doing the “lights/sire on…lights siren off” thing because we were embarrassed! We were not doing anything wrong, on the contrary we were choosing to do the safer thing instead of plowing right ahead anyway (some still do this too!)
I also regularly move cars out of my way to get to a point where I can observe a vehicle in the front of a pack of cars. I’ll tap my air horn or flip my lights on and off so I can get behind a target vehicle. I may or may not stop that vehicle, but I need to get behind them to further my observations.
There are many reasons why police use their lights / siren. I really don’t like turning them on unless I have to. Most people react in the most bizarre ways as soon as you turn them on, example: MANY times a car will STOP in the fast lane of a four lane road, some drivers partially pull to the shoulder (without slowing down) and make you drive REALLY fast to get by them, some drivers pull over well ahead of me because they are watching their rear view mirrors. This allows the idiot driver in front me to pass them without yielding to me!
It’s not all it’s cracked up to be. Emergency driving is dangerous and frustrating. The diverse groups of drivers out there make any kind of emergency driving interesting at best.
I still can’t believe it – a cop does not tell the truth in court under oath! I drive at speed limit he does not even bother to measure my speed and I get a 22mph ticket – in court he tells he measured me through the open window – when he had his window up all the time.
Why would he do this and what can I do to avoid this from reoccurring — now that I have a permanent ticket on my record because I was so naive to go and fight it in court.
Nothing against police – most of them are good guys doing an underpaid job I would not do.
How can I prove the real speed I went without having always to have a witness with me? Is a GPS tracker/logger accepted in court?
Warren, Michigan cops are revenue generators, pure and simple. Back in March/April 2007, there was a Warren cop sitting on Mound road between 13 and 14 mile roads every day during rush hour trying to nab speeders. The speed limit was 35 mph, and clearly underposted. Since the speed limit was raised to 50 mph in May, 2007 I have not seen a Warren cop there.
Joe
Please go back and read my post again pertaining to whether or not cop is responding to a call. If I’m doing the speed limit in a 35mph zone and a police car comes past me, going like a bat out of hell and a mile away I see him stopped behind other traffic at a light, he ain’t on no call.
Thats just one example how I determine they’re not on call, another is same scenerio only a mile down the road you see him in parking lot talking to a buddy.
It’s not the older wiser and mature officers that are the problem, it’s the young ones that have a big powerful chip on their shoulder and take great pride in writing the ticket.
The young SA that wrote me the ticket was smiling the whole time and when he asked me my age (it was on licence) and I told him,he said you’re same age as my grandfather as he finished writing the ticket with a BIG grin on his face.
Joe,
If you want, scroll down and take a look at some of my outlooks/motivations on traffic enforcement.
As with many ideas, I know there is room for a middle ground between the Traffic Cops and those in favor of less enforcement.
I cannot speak for some people in different parts of our Country. The United States is a big place and I’ve found that how enforcement is dispensed sometimes depends on where you’re located. I’ve never agreed with the zero tolerance attitudes. I think I mentioned in another post that I recently took part in a seminar regarding traffic safety. The presenter and I were at odds on the “zero tolerance” vs. “allowing a reasonable cushion”. He (one of my own kind : ) and I never agreed on a middle ground. I think what annoyed me the most was that he remarked how he always used the “cushion” when he was a police officer, but now that he has retired and is working for an “agency” he believes he was wrong all of the those years. Their group wanted US to be the bad guys and help institute a change in policy where no cushion is allowed!
Besides those people who just want to drive fast there are many other reasonable…..reasons why someone might exceed the speed limit. Almost NO ONE in our area, regardless of their department enforces a strict compliance speed. Funny thing is, many officers don’t even like writing the speeding tickets.
We’re in the armpit of our Country : ) ……the Northeast.
http://www.motorists.org/blog/speed-limits/reinstating-55-are-they-crazy/#comments
http://www.motorists.org/blog/speed-cameras/maryland-police-refuse-to-pay-speed-camera-tickets/
Joe,
Great example here to go along with what you were saying about police violating traffic laws. I was stopped at a 4-way intersection with a red light. My light turns green just as a local PD’s Charger comes flying up to the light on the cross street. He simply hits his lights and sirens without even hitting the brakes. As soon as he clears the intersection he flips em back off while continuing along going at least 10mph over the posted limit.
I happened to be headed the same way as him so as I come up on the town that the guy in the Charger patrols, I see him just sitting on the side of the road with the radar gun out. No emergency to respond to.. no reason to speed.. then as I pass him going the posted speed limit, he pulls out behind me and follows me (on my ass) for at least 4-5 miles before pulling off.
So if that’s the average persons only experience with the PD in their towns or cities, I don’t blame them at all for coming on here and complaining.
Oh, and Traffic Cop, I don’t simply complain. I am working with a state senator right now to affect some of this. Four hard copy letters this year so far to reps and senators. More planned. I’m a citizen who knows there’s a wrong(s) and is trying to correct it. Unfortunately the municipal and law environment lobbies, backed up clear into the federal government by all the safety lobbyists pretty much overwhelm any efforts by a simple peasant. That should be of some comfort to you. Money overcomes all. Our founding fathers would be proud.
Traffic Cop, you live in a different world I guess. We may be speaking past each other.
Here’s my reality. In Oklahoma citation quota’s are completely legal and there’s firm evidence they are used. I would like to see that outlawed ….but it’s Oklahoma.
Further there’s absolutely no doubt about the revenue bias. In ‘06 before the speed trap law was disemboweled in the state legislature by a former highway patrol officer (surprise), 5 municipalities were on probation for violating the law. That law allowed no more then 50 percent of a munciplaties’ annual operating budget to be made from traffic revenue. Most of the accused were making upwards of 70 percent or more. The result of the prohibition was that a couple municipalities almost went bankrupt when they were kicked off their major highway revenue source (have newspaper clippings of that).
I have the newspaper next to me for the following; Roland, Oklahoma in ‘02 made over a $1.04 million in one year! It’s a rural town of few soles (2,842) not even visible from the Interstate highway. Source; Tulsa World, Sunday, March 16th, 2003.
And while they did get their hands slapped briefly, the boys in blue are back in business always waiting. So cops that hire on with these municipalities do so with no false assumptions as to their duties. So while your situation may be different, for many of us it’s reality time.
James Young can fill in any gaps. He and I are molded by the same policing mentality. If your gonna set there and tell me that there’s nothing wrong with the situation I just described then I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree.
Traffic Cop what do you mean by %100 speed. I guess I have to agree because accidents are not very possible unless a vehicle is driving at some speed. Parents have backed over a kid in the driveway of the family residence at perhaps 3 or 4 mph. Since your the expert here, can you give us a firm figure as to what percentage of those 40K fatalities were caused solely because of speeding. No waffling please. Thanks.
L.J. McGaha how do you figure out whether the cops are on call or not? Are you a officer or someone who has inside information? Most of us don’t have that advantage.
Tim, that’s exactly why I included my disclaimer. I’ve got stung a few times. Besides it’s true. It would be insane to accuse all members of any group to be “all” bad. Not all Nazi’s and Klu Klux Klan members were bad. I use these extremes to demonstrate a point. I’m not comparing law enforcement with these groups.
Tim, allow me to do some thinking out loud. I guess I’m old fashioned (age 62) for I remember and still hark back to my up bringing and times when cops “just wanted to get along”. Cops that recognized we all make mistakes and were willing to accept average citizens as such. Cops that had no agenda to pursue. Most were mature, non-testosterone driven officers. Modern policing has changed all that. Now the tensions and suspension’s have elevated to new levels primarily from traffic enforcement and speeding violations. Most of us would never have any contact with law enforcement if it wasn’t for traffic stops. None of us were born with a preconceived notion about law enforcement. We were molded by your profession.
Many of us are just average citizens with no ill. We have jobs, we raise(ed) a family and want to live in a peaceful environment just like you. But we see cops appearing to violate the law, endangering the driving public by stalking the public with unmarked cars inviting impostors. We see multitudes of speeding violations written on major thoroughfares for revenue purposes while ignoring violations which really can cause accidents. All this has lead to a tension between many of us that I think even you will agree is not good. But unless we can come to some understanding, most of us will remain on alert and suspicious of law enforcement, it’s that simple. Many of us will carry it to the grave. Perhaps that doesn’t concern your chosen profession but it should.
I guess it’s outside my frame of logic to understand why LEO’s will concentrate on moderate speeding and treating speed limits as absolutes on major roadways such as Interstates/expressways. The motive at least in my state seems to strongly indicate this bias is economically motivated by the city officials. While outside the mainstream, as to be expected, there are some posters on here who think that’s a great thing. Traffic control has become a business. Revenue was one of the worst things ever to be introduced to traffic control thanks in part to the NMSL enforcement. Thanks Nixon…you louse. Thanks to Bill Clinton also for putting 10,000 more ticket writers on the streets. At the time many of us were naive and believed these officers would be used to fight crime. As the program progressed we found out who the intended criminals were. Those big, bad speeders. Silly us for not suspecting this in the first place.
Tim, we’re on two different sides of the fence. In a perfect world we would both be on the same side fighting evil. The criminal would be on the other side. While a perfect world is not achievable I believe we should be working in that direction. We would both benefit from it but traffic control in general and this super fascination with speed enforcement is ruining the party. Rodney King said it best “can’t we all just get along”. And kudos to John G, I couldn’t have said it better myself. Your observations are on the mark. One of my favorite phrases is “enforcement of the wrong laws, for the wrong reason, using the wrong methods”. That’s pretty much my assessment in a nutshell.
Traffic Cop: There is no correlation between the intensity of enforcement and key traffic safety measures. ZERO. Enforcement intensity goes up and down. Key safety measures do not change with changes in enforcement.
Seems like a lot of people on here doing what good ol’ Americans do, sitting back and complaining and monday morning quarter backing!
If you guys (and gals) think you can do a better job, GO FOR IT! In my department I don’t get any extra money for tickets I write, in fact my actual department only gets $1 from each ticket and the municipal court keeps the rest. As far as making money going to court, yeah right!
In the past 5 years I would say I have probably been to court maybe 3 or 4 times! Yeah the court system may be a little messed up, because it is about the money! They don’t care what you plea to as long as they are seeing the green paper (or whatever color it is these days).
When I first became a cop I thought it was stupid the government told people they had to wear their seatbelt, and I refused to write a seatbelt ticket. After the 5th or 6th family I had to go tell their loved one had died in a car crash because they weren’t wearing their seatbelt I decided I probably should start enforcing the seatbelt law.
I have worked hundreds of injury car crashes and have seen 1 crash where the guy might have lived if he wasn’t wearing his seatbelt, and it still wouldn’t have been a guaranteee he would have lived.
As far as speed goes, I promise you %100 speed does kill. Every year in the US around 40,000 people are killed in car crashes. I promise you if there were not dedicated officers enforcing traffic laws that number would be at minimum doubled, and realisticly tripled or quadrupled.
The chance of you or one of your own loved ones being killed or seriously injured in a vehicle accident would be very likely! (and it’s not just you that you have to be worried about, it’s other motorist driving crazy).
I have no magic ticket number I have to write every month, and in fact I dont even have to write a ticket, I am only required to write a written warning. But I choose to enforce the traffic laws to attempt to save lives. I hope at least one of you can see the insight here from someone that does the job every day, but I doubt it!
By the way I did like the guys idea of givng the money to charity. The only problem I see with that is that our taxes would go through the ROOF! But if that ever did happen, watch out, I would give every one of you suckers 3 or 4 tickets!!!! :-) j/k
Drive Safe and Buckle Up! (ARRIVE ALIVE)
I have a note book with over 125 entries, unit #, date time, location, violation etc. I do insure cop is not on a call before making an entry, ie do they stop for traffic light/sign, do they slow down in traffic etc.
When I have a few current violations listed I forward to chief of police. You can tell when he gets list, you won’t see any violations for a week or so then back to their violations.
The reason why police don’t follow speed limits (specifically on interstates) is because they know it’s not dangerous.
They won’t be punished and they aren’t doing anything wrong from a realistic point of view. If I were a cop I wouldn’t follow speed limits on most interstates either just as I don’t now.
The only difference is I wouldn’t have to worry about people hiding in the bushes with laser guns and could focus more on driving. I wouldn’t give speeding tickets either on most sections of interstates except for construction zones. I’d try and give more tickets for people blocking the left lane and impeding the flow of traffic or tailgating.
I honestly could not sleep at night otherwise because I would know to do otherwise is wrong and taking advantage of people for the benefit of the state.
Joe,
Unfortunately you are probably more correct then me *sigh!*
Just try and stay away from words like “all, everyone, always, etc” and understand that sometimes there are reasons why officers make maneuvers that would ordinarily be met with a ticket. It’s very true that police are not required to use their lights and siren each time they are responding to calls. The type of call dictates the officer’s response and many times the response is not to run lights/siren the entire time.
There are some who do care about hypocrisy.
Side Note: “But anyone from another planet would take one look and discover we don’t all live under the same standards and rules”
If the Alien were to look at human civilization as a whole he would see this saturated in every part, not just the police. When it comes down to it, the police would be lower on their scale of scope and influence as it applies to the lives of others.
Come on guys, anybody except from another planet knows the police do about anything they want. While Tim may disagree there’s just no argument here. Only their moral restraint restricts them. Some have it, others don’t. But anyone from another planet would take one look and discover we don’t all live under the same standards and rules.
Think about it for a minute. Your a young testosterone driven male and you’ve suddenly been given all this authority backed up clear to the highest court in the land. There’s absolutely nothing to stop you from running around demonstrating your kings authority. Your now running with the big dogs. I will add my standard disclaimer; not all cops are of such manner but too many are.
One of my co-workers, wives aunts, is married to a OHP (Oklahoma Highway Patrol) and this co-worker says that as long as this individual does not have his uniform on he’s pretty decent. Once he puts on that uniform it changes his whole personality. Let’s put it this way, I wouldn’t want to be the guy who gets stopped by him. Is this guy overestimating his worth?
Nope. They have owed me $20 since 1989.
Did they pay for the damage? I’m certain that sometimes it is true that they are having a good laugh.
One of our guys turned around to catch a speeder and just barely clipped the edge of his tire’s rim on a small curb. The tire didn’t blow out or anything, it just lost it’s bead.
He was suspended a day without pay for that one.
Tim writes: {Get the car number and make a report. I know that in some departments no one cares, but some do.}
I was once passing two Chippies who had stopped a car on the 5 through the Central Valley. Just as I came up on them – clear vision for miles – one pulled all the way from the shoulder to the #1 lane, forcing me onto the median, breaking the parking brake cable. The other guy saw it, stopped for me, gave me the offender’s name and unit #, and the commander’s name and address in Coalinga.
I fixed the cable (< $20) but submitted the bill to CHP and sent a nice letter outlining the circumstances of the incident, complete with witness names (the Chippie who stopped had two people with him who saw it). He never answered the letter but said in my follow-up phone call, that the matter was being handled “administratively,” meaning, of course, that they were having a good laugh about it.
Get the car number and make a report. I know that in some departments no one cares, but some do.
My violation was I drove in the turning lane for about half a city block,young officer told me you only get in turning lane just prior to making your turn.
Traffic in travel lanes backed up at light for over 2 blocks, I was going to make left turn, so I got in turn lane where there was no traffic.
L.J. McGaha, traffic violations by local cops are so routine here in Tulsa that hardly anybody comments on it anymore. Following too closely and speeding are my favorite. Sometimes they’ll come up to a red light at a intersection, flip on their lights, go through the light, flip off their lights and lazily proceed on.
The use of unmarked cars are proliferating here and that makes it even less obvious that a cop is violating the law. Drivers now just think it’s another driver. How would you like to drive around in a unmarked cop car and never need to worry about a ticket? It’s another form of corruption that’s set in to law enforcement.
What was the context of your violation and the same one committed by the officer?
I received a ticket, paid the fine $147.75. Two weeks later saw a local cop in a patrol car do EXACTLY same thing I was ticketed for of, but because he was a cop it was permissable.
Younger cops carry a huge chip on their shoulder and they all tell you no warnings, just a ticket, regardless of how minute or ridiculous the offense is. I can’t speak for other parts of the country, but the local police are the WORST violators of traffic laws. It is amazing the violations I see every day and they get by with it because they are cops.
The US Constitution says innocent until proven guilty.
By simply taking a police officer’s word over the accused a judge violates the US Constitution and thus should be in jail.
Shooter,
Chances are that most tickets written are marginally legal in accordance with the way they are written. The problem lies in the moral and ethical enforcement of them. I had a judge tell me he would hear my case later and I protested based on the fact that: 1. I pleaded not Guilty and waived my right to an attorney.
2. Traffic violations in most cases were heard at a hearing. I was not at a trial.3. I told the officer at the scene I wished to be arrested because he would not write the ticket for the 5 mph and less I was speeding when pulled over. The officer and I debated the issue until he put me in the back of his vehicle and checked out my drivers license. He found no problem of arrests, warrants, or convictions in my past so he pleaded with me to sign the ticket, but would not write 60 mph or less when others were passing at 80 or better. I finally consented, but told him if I had to pay so much as a nickel over parking fees and lunch I would serve time. I was already losing a days pay and mileage.
The judge stated he would hear my case, but later in the day because my knowledge of the law was” above that of the common citizen”.
I was the last case heard that day. He was going to assess court costs, but I reminded the police officer of my appearance in court and his refusal to arrest me weeks earlier. the judge had dismissed my case got so mad when an honest police officer spoke up he dismissed the court cost and told me ” I do not want to see you in my court again. The majority of police are doing their jobs, but the trouble I see is those motorists who develop the bad-mouth attitude and are guilty of not speeding, but unsafe driving practices.
We are provided a list of our particular court dates. You can be “scheduled” as much as three or four times a week. The list you get is your notice to be there.
Many times you can get away with not going, but the rules are that if you are scheduled you are required to be there! If you know you have court and gamble that no one is going to call you then you can get away with the beer.
If you do get the call and don’t answer or tell them you can’t come in the case MAY automatically become LOP “Lack Of Prosecution”. The court sometimes works with us, but not always.
To sum it up: If you are scheduled, you should be aware that you MAY be called therefore you should make arrangements.
This doesn’t just include our days off. If you work a midnight shift, get off at 0700 you could get called at lunch time. We try hard to avoid these situations.
The majority of our guys come when they have special or important cases. It’s rarely about the money (seems like it was with the story)
Our compensation on our day off is two hours. You can elect for four, but if you get done early the shift commander can send you out on the street for the rest of the time.
In addition, as a fatal crash investigator I can be called ANYTIME. Over the last four years we’ve averaged about 1 every 5 weeks (over 40 lives). One of my partners is also a SWAT member. He’s also on call all the time for SWAT and Traffic.
Sometimes you wonder who’s life it is?
Tim, couple of questions if you don’t mind.
You can get called to testify on very short notice even if it’s your scheduled time off?
I assume you automatically get OT for that, but do you get any other compensation? I’m a computer guy; if I have to get up and answer the phone at 2 am on a Saturday–that counts as a full day of work even if answering the phone was all I did. I’m on salary so it makes no difference money-wise, but that day counts for seniority, vacation accural, etc.
So if you only get OT for the time you are there, that sucks.
Next question, what if you were having a few beers at that BBQ, do you get to say “sorry, but I’ve been drinking”?
First: I agreed that the “intersection” is wrong and I can’t see giving out so many tickets for such a crappy design flaw.
Second: “IT’S OUR RIGHT to confront!” Excuse my choice of words but, when I have to come to work on my day off the city is going to PAY! You don’t work for free, neither do I.
I don’t care for stories that are completely outrageous, then the concept of the story is applied liberally to all other situations. If I write tickets causing someone to contest them and I have to come to work on my day off I’m going to get paid. If not, schedule it while I’m working! That happens sometimes and sometimes it’s on my day off. The ATTORNEYS get first crack at the schedule they want then the ACCUSED get second crack at the schedule they want then I get scheduled to fit the first two regardless of WHAT I MIGHT BE DOING ON MY DAY OFF. “IF” I am aware of a trial date conflict, then I have to have a written letter two the court TWO WEEKS in advance if I want out. Sometimes they let me out, sometimes they don’t.
At a moments notice I’ve been called from dinner, barbecues with friends/ family and nights out at the movies to come to court to testify. THEN when I get there the “accused/lawyer” changes their mind about the trial. They just wanted to see if I would come. If the timing is right and the request to “see me” so blatant, the prosecutor and I DO NOT HAVE TO OFFER THE PLEA BARGAIN. Some people should think about that before they play Perry Mason. Many times the last thing I care about is the MONEY.
Address this problem, not the entire system. It was clear there was an engineering problem and a enforcement problem. From the look of the video it appeared to be an on ramp. Why they would put a stop sign at this place is mind-boggling.
To Tim: The accuser is “allowed” ?!?!?!?!?!?
IT’S OUR RIGHT to confront!!
Gimme a break.
I agree with shooter’s comment about the judge as well.
That’s not much of an “intersection” as far as stop signs go. I don’t like that at all.
As far as my overtime goes for traffic court. I do go a lot, on my days off. At any time they can not notice me to come and I won’t, but they can’t because the accused is allowed to confront the accuser. At times it is more annoying and I just don’t want the money. I would rather spend the time on my days off with my wife and daughter.
I’m most disturbed that the judge would lie that the law enforcement officer was an unbiased witness! How could he be unbiased when he wrote the ticket? What’s the point of going to court if the officer couldn’t have been mistaken? How could he possible be unbiased when he monetarily benefits from writing the ticket? And where in the Hell did that judge learn his ethics from? Another pathetic example of how our judicial system is undermining itself by acting immorally, illegally, or unethically!
The most disturbing thought is, how many more officer kanapsky’s are out there that haven’t been exposed yet??
Good sample of a crooked cop that abuse his power.
I bet he gave tickets only at signs in compliance with the federal manual on uniform traffic control devices, yeah right.
http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/sitemap.htm
Nice post.
This is why law enforcement (and governments) should not be allowed to keep the proceeds of there enforcement.
The problem has always been law enforcement becoming more about money, than safety.
That is why the proceeds from fines should go to a third party charity who have no say in the enforcement of the law.
Once the money is taken out, law enforcement can focus on safety problems, not technical fouls which is what happened here.