Maryland Police Refuse To Pay Speed Camera Tickets
March 10th, 2008 Posted in Professional Courtesy, Speed Cameras
Speed cameras in Montgomery County, Maryland have been ticketing motorists for quite some time now. Under their program, the tickets go to the owner of the vehicle instead of the driver. This is a common flaw in ticket camera systems across the country.
Local authorities have decided that it’s acceptable to do this to avoid the hassle of tracking down the actual violators.
The average motorist who receives a speed camera ticket can either fight it in court or send in a check. However, the amount of effort and time necessary to get a speed camera ticket dismissed is substantial. As a result, most drivers — even innocent ones — choose to just pay the ticket in order to avoid taking time off work to go to court.
Limited court costs are a key reason why ticket camera programs are so profitable for local governments.
According to the Washington Post, police in Montgomery County are bucking the trend and have decided to use their union resources to avoid paying camera tickets:
Among the thousands of drivers who have been issued $40 fines after being nabbed by Montgomery County’s new speed cameras are scores of county police officers. The difference is, many of the officers are refusing to pay.
The officers are following the advice of their union, which says the citations are issued not to the driver but to the vehicle’s owner — in this case, the county.
So basically, they’ve decided to exploit the flaw in the system that they helped create. The article continues:
That view has rankled Police Chief J. Thomas Manger and County Council Member Phil Andrews (D-Gaithersburg-Rockville), who chairs the Public Safety Committee.
“You can’t have one set of laws for police officers and another one for the rest of the world,” Andrews said.
Unfortunately, too often this appears to be the case, creating unnecessary tension between police officers and motorists:
In recent weeks, officers have twice been photographed speeding past a camera and extending a middle finger, an act that police supervisors interpreted as a gesture of defiance. “There is no excuse for that kind of behavior,” said Andrews, who was briefed on the incidents.
During the last eight months of 2007, the department’s cameras recorded 224 instances in which county police vehicles were nabbed traveling more than 10 mph over the speed limit, the department disclosed this week in response to an inquiry from The Washington Post.
Of those citations, 76 were dismissed after supervisors determined that officers were responding to calls or had other valid reasons to exceed the speed limit. Nearly two-thirds of the remaining 148 fines have not been paid, including an unspecified number that remain under investigation, said Lt. Paul Starks, a police spokesman. He said the number of citations issued to police employees this year is not yet available.
It will be interesting to see whether the officers will be held to same standard as normal citizens, who would most certainly face consequences if they refused to pay their tickets.
Image Credit: MikeSchinkel
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All that this site serves to do is to bash police. This article claims that police “exploit the flaw in the system that they helped create”. Since when do police create laws? I thought they ENFORCE laws, not make them. Shouldn’t you place the blame where it belongs — on the politicians who actually MAKE the laws? This story is about police defiance of a county law, enacted by county officials, which most police oppose. The majority of police that I know oppose speed cameras, as they punish the owners and are unreliable at best. If you can’t identify the operator, you should not issue a ticket, just like in the “real world”.
Speeding violations are, no doubt, a revenue vehicle for local and state governments. However, comments made about “unfair” tickets seem unjustified most times. I agree that a ticket for a couple of miles over the speed limit is unfair (some cars speedometers are several miles off anyway), but 10 or more over signals to me that you knew you were speeding. If you know you are speeding (or should reasonably know) and the limit is posted, then you run the risk of a ticket. You can’t complain about being punished for violating a law that is well known, posted, with easy compliance. Many people hate and oppose seat belt laws too (despite evidence that they save lives), but they run the same risk of tickets if they don’t buckle up. Just because you don’t like or support a law does not mean that you should break it.
Brian, police do make laws through selective enforcement. That’s the whole point of making an issue of police not paying speeding tickets. When a cop pulls me over for speeding and I am forced to pay a fine that reenforces that it is illegal for me to speed. When a cop or member of their family regularly gets away with speeding that in effect makes it legal for them to speed, even though the legislature has said otherwise. Victims of selective enforcement are not “bashing” police they are rightly angry over an injustice.
This Is Ridicules, Police Officers Getting Speeding Tickets . I Believe Police Officers Should Follow The Rules . But Lets Not Get Stupid . I Pay Taxes – $5000.00 A Year Just For My Home 8009 Exodus Drive Gaithersburg MD . The Last Thing I Wanna See Is Montgomery County Cops Who I Personally Have The Most Respect For Out Of Any
Other police Agency In America . Worrying About Camera Tickets – Then Doing There Jobs ( Looking For Reckless Drivers , DRUNKS , DRUGED UP CRUNKED UP IDIOTS ! Endangering Our Lives )
The Question To Be Asked Is This – How Can They Move Freely / Catch Up To Suspected Criminals If They Have To Obey Speeding Laws . It Is The Stupidest !
Thing I Have Ever Heard Of .
The Problem Is It Interferes With There Ability To Move Freely .
Police Stealth Should Not Be Under Minded By A Bunch Of Pencil Pushing Desk Jobs .
Whats Next ?
Stupidity And Ignorance Is Always On The Rise .
This Issue Needs To Put In Perspective Correctly Along With A Few Others .
Theres In No Way In Hell ! Police Can Continue To Do There Jobs Correctly
If This Insane Idiotic Proposal In Implemented .
I Will Personally Stand Up In Any Court Room In This County To Battle This Idiotic
Nonsense .
Here Are A Few Things To Ponder . What Are The Biggest Complaints Against
Police . THEY NEVER GET THERE ON TIME ! Hello
Im A 40 Year Old Outlaw , I Have Been Street Racing For 25 Of Those Years .
I Have Been In Numerous Police Chases . I Know First Hand How To Get Away
From Police . Do What They Won’t Do ! It Works . Police officer Throws His Lights
100 Yards Away For Me , Im Gone . Theres No Way There Cruisers Can Out Run Me From The Start Never Mind From A 100 Yard Lead .
Tieing There Hands Will Only Lead To Needless Suffering For Those That Speed
Is The Only Thing That Will Save There Lives .
I Don’t Run From Montgomery County They Catch You !
I have Had My Share Of Run In s With The Fuzz . But Because I Was Respectful
And They Respected Me It Has Always Ended Up Nice .
I Am An Out Law But Im Not A Criminal .
This Is Just a Ploy To Collect 1 – 2 A Meaning Less Attack On Our Great Police Force .
Out Law = Some Who Disagrees With Idiot Laws :)
If I Can Help Call Me 240-654-2094
I Didn’t Move Back Here ( My Home ) To See It Go To Shit .
to Whom It May Concern , Because It Does Concern Me .
Thank For You Time .
Quote: “Perhaps the ultimate solution to professional courtesy is to trim back the laws to those the cops will enforce against other cops and see how that works out.” End quote.
True Story follows:
There was a time when a County Police Officer ticketed a City Police Officer’s spouse, even though their vehicle clearly displayed the Police Department Shield in the rear window or on the rear bumper. The City Police Officer of the ticketed spouse contacted the County Officer responsible, and requested “Professional Courtesy” for his wife. The County Officer refused.
What happened next? Well it started a “war” (for lack of a better word) between the City and County Officers, which lead to the ticketing of all Police Officer’s from different jurisdictions, and progressed to Family members on both sides.
It is an unwritten and unacknowledged (outside of law enforcement) “Professional Courtesy” that Law Enforcement is expected to extend to one another, and indicates the level of respect between jurisdictions. A sort of truce was reached when the Top Brass from the affected jurisdictions became involved. This truce has continued for thirty some years. It should be noted that the “Professional Courtesy” extends to all Judges, court employee’s, and some elected officials.
How About professional Courtesy for the REST of us? The ones that pay very heavy tax burden to fund multiple layers of police forces, each pledging to PROTECT and SERVE us, yet many members of which do nothing but spend all day in speed traps trying to get MORE money out of us?
I say again to law enforcement agencies, when you allow yourself to become the tax collecting tool of the politicians, you start an erosion of respect that you may wake up one day and be in a profession more hated then that of lawyer.
In NY State, they are there.
Walkerny:
You have no argument with me. I too would like “Professional Courtesy”, but we all know that will never happen.
The officers are correct. The owner of the vehicle, Montgomery County, should pay or absorb the fines. The real cost to the County is the bounty paid to the camera company, not the total fine, since it is fee in vs fee paid.
Further, Montgomery County might otherwise discipline the officers who are “fingering” the cameras for conduct unbecoming an officer of the law, but not for mild speeding on duty. Traffic flow demands that all cars in the capital area drive a margin over the limit. More seriously, what happens on the red light camera sightings? Does the County assess the officers for those? Is there a penalty to the officers for turning on emergency lights when not needed?
I’ve read alot of thoughts (tho certainly not all) on this blog. Opinions have been many and diverse. On the issue of police being photoed, I myself still haven’t formed an ironclad opinion about whether officers themselves should pay the tickets or not. I will say, if they opt to pass the cost on to the police department they may as well just dismiss the infraction entirely because the cost eventually will be borne by the taxpayers (since, at that point it will come out of the dept. budget…which is tax money!). If the dept. chose to make the officers pay, it should be easy to determine who was driving since records should indicate who a given police vehicle was issued to or signed out for that given day (as the car would have numbers on it indicating it’s identity)! Also, if it was found that they were infact responding “no lights” to an actual incident, charges could be dismissed at that time! Just another opinion to ponder.
J Owen, I have already seen an uptick in Police “safety” speed traps here in New York State since the looming budget deficits. They were already at a Police-State level. Always on well maintained straight superhighways in dry weather. When the weather gets bad and people drive much slower, you can not find a cop on the same roads…no money to be made…
The politicians are more cash hungry than ever to support bloated government. The idea of cutting staff and spending is mental sulfuric acid to them. So they will squeeze and enslave a formerly free people ever more.
Officers out there reading this blog, not only will you be replaced by cameras, the remaining officers will be made a tool of the tax collectors AND the cameras like this officer described was. In my experience NONE of you got into law enforcement for this. The erosion of respect for law enforcement is continuing and will accelerate as you start to be viewed as an occupying army collecting the modern version of the tax on tea & stamps. May I suggest the Canadian Mounties red coat with crossed white belts might be more appropriate to your new duties? RESIST BEING USED THIS WAY.
Montgomery County police are operating quite the scam. I received a photo citation today from Montgomery County by mail. This was one of the only times I have been on the road in Montgomery County. I remember the night in question quite well, because I had driven to DC to pick up my daughter from a national student conference. As I was coming home a car was tailgating me–within a car length away, but the car didn’t seem willing to pass. The car was almost pushing me to drive faster. At one point the car backed off and then we saw a flash. My daughter thought there was a slight explosion or something, but we didn’t know what happened. Again the vehicle sped up again, and was again tailgating me. My daughter and I talked about what to do to get him off my tail, discussing looking for a place to pull over and allow the vehicle to pass. Finally we saw a right turn lane, and I pulled over into it, to encourage the tailgater to drive passed me. To my surprise the tailgater that seemed to be pushing me to go faster was a police cruiser. Once past, I pulled back to the left lane and out of the turn lane, following the police officer. At that point the police cruiser turned on the blue lights and raced away. About 1/4 to 1/2 a mile ahead, the blue lights were turned off, and the cruiser made a u-turn in the road and passed me going the other direction.
We discussed the police officer’s driving at that time, and couldn’t figure out why the officer were drive so strangely.
Today’s citation now makes it clearer–as the officer was apparently assisting me speed up to catch the camera that was somewhere on Georgia Ave.
I received a photo violation today. The Montgomery County website:
http://www.public-web.com is the Login Page. Citation Number: MC006302672 PIN #: 292934402
The two photos taken show a time of .30 seconds interval. The distance traveled from the white roadway marker (1st photo) to 2nd photo is under 8 feet. The citation reads my vehicle was traveling at 41 mph in a 30 mph zone. 41 Mph is 60.1333333333333333 feet per second. The timestamp on both photos read the same: Mar 03 2009 10:58:13 and the Weather: Clear. Fact is Montgomery County Schools had a 2 hour delayed opening because of ICE. The distance my vehicle traveled does NOT equate to 41 Mph but under 20 Mph. I frequent this area and know the camera location- recently seeing a maintenance guy working on it. The county will NOT release any INFO about maintenance or issues or ANYTHING about the camera system. ALL REQUESTS must be in writing or you can visit the Montgomery County Police Department at 2350 Research Blvd, Records Department Rockville, MD 20850. IF you DO NOT PAY the MVA (Motor Vehicle Administration) will revoke your registration. This is clearly a money maker for Montgomery County, Doug Duncan & Gang and it’s not about safety. I invite comments about the photos online. Does the science work, is my math wrong?
I don’t like those stupid speed camera in Montgomery county, MD. This county doesn’t know how to generate money so they install speed cameras all over the county to generate their income. Plus, the cameras companies lobbied them to make a slice cake of the money too. We should write a petition to have a bollot in the election to overthrow this scam. They scam people money in the legal way.
Plus, most drivers slow down when they know the cameras present. But, after passing the camera, they will speed up for lost of their time. I do it all the time. I slow down at the camera and speed up after that.
I lose the speed ticket leder can send egen to me
[...] Re: Police vehicle caught by red light camera this one is from motorists.com Maryland Police Refuse To Pay Speed Camera Tickets [...]
I’m totally against this speed camera. The county and the camera companies try to make money from the citizen. What else are they going to spy us? Is this freedom of movement or democracy? Seems like socialist state nowaday. Spy every where as North Korea.
Most people slow down at the camera and after that they speed up to make it up.
We need to do petition drive to stop this speed camera.
I’m very sick of this.
I understand what you are saying. You live in the Northeast and fully understand the courtesy conditions. I don’t care for them too much and rarely intrude on anyone else’s stops/tickets, BUT I constantly deal with these incidents among other officers.
I don’t mind giving someone a helping hand, I’ll do that for just about anyone, but when they kick dirt in your face, then dial up their brother on their cell phone who’s a Capt. in a nearby department, I do get pissed off.
It’s this part of the country. I know from speaking with other officers that they regularly say “watch out down south, they don’t care who you are, you’ll get a ticket”. I tell them I won’t, because I won’t do anything that bad to get myself stopped in the first place!
A NY Trooper tagged me one night. I was driving to Vermont via the Thru Way, then Lake George. It was the middle of winter at about 2:30 in the morning. It’s scary dark and desolate around that area, that time of year (I heard the Jason, Cha, Cha, Cha, sounds) He stopped me for 53 in a 45. That’s pretty tough. He let me go pretty quick (I saw him and stopped just in front of him as he sat on the side of the road with his lights off, then on). I gave him my stuff AND I did tell him I was a police officer. I wanted to make him a little bit more comfortable being so far out and alone. He gave me a warning, but I thought it was a little bit of stretch for those speeding conditions. Three miles up the road I came across the only honky tonk bar open at that time. He was looking for DRUNKS! I didn’t mind being stopped then.
As far as the other tickets go I get them ALL THE TIME and I like getting them. I believe those driving habits contribute to the deaths in the accidents I have to continually investigate.
Tim
I’ll back off you. You seem like a decent, honest guy and I have no doubt you operate in the way you state. I myself am no speed demon, I drive the conditions, and have only ever been dinged by the police on bone dry, empty, straight on roads on sunny days.
I pay the highest tax burden in New York, which pays for layer upon layer of overlapping police forces, which seem to employ over half their manpower not in fighting crime, which is high, but in terrorizing the population with concealed speed traps.
I wouldn’t even mind if they drove AMONGST us in unmarked cars and caught the true ‘bad drivers’, the aggressive, the texting, the senile, the drunk, the lazy, that cause 90% of the accidents. We see these things every day, but we never see a cop in traffic pull out and nail them for it. The cops are all at static speed traps because that is the fast, quick and easy way to run up revenue.
I do see other places with a lower police presence, and they seem to get by ok. But here in NY we have a huge police state terrorizing its own motorists, AND we fund it! Guess we deserve what we get, I’m leaving NY over this and other things as soon as my boys graduate. Only denial of taxes will kill the beast.
Police need to realize that respect for them erodes when they let themselves be tools of revenue agents and politicians. Push back!
I won’t argue your point of cops and their friends. Yes, many police officers may extend that courtesy. Your interpretation was incorrect. My numbers were off the top of my head, suffice to say I let plenty of people go for no reason other than to provide a warning. As for your 200-1 number, you are WAY off. It seems every other person I stop is a cousins, sisters, best friend of that person’s grandfather whose stepbrother is a cop. I get tired of wading through this “let me go because of who I know”. I gave my own Lt’s friend TWO tickets the other night, not to be a jerk, but because of the way he was driving (two equipment, warning on the moving) and he sat there lying through his teeth about his violations.
One of my friends called me a few months ago about a relative of MINE they stopped. I told them to GIVE HIM A TICKET! The relative (nephew) hasn’t been driving long enough to do what he was doing, therefore he is never going to learn unless he pays some cash and learns I cannot and will not help him when he makes poor decisions.
As far as “it’s all about the taxes and jobs” I don’t agree. I’m not going to re-hash the same things I went through on this board and it’s associated one over the last six months. If you want to read it feel free. BTW, I watched yet another person die three nights ago. He was 18, drinking and speeding. He ejected himself out of the window.
I know what motivates me to write tickets.
So it follows that 1/4 of all people you give tickets to are cops or their friends and family? I doubt it. Based on your generosity below, that would have the breakout for you to be completely impartial. My guess is the ratio of civilians policemen pull over to cops&friends is probably 200 to 1. So unless you let 200 people go for every off duty cop you let go, you aren’t 100% impartial. Even at “3 to 1″ you are still more likely to let a cop or his family off. That doesn’t address the tickets that get ‘fixed’ out of your control.
And by the way, you ‘cannot speak for other cops’ but be HONEST, the practice of ‘professional courtesy’ is RAMPANT and a hypocritical stain on the mantra that ‘it is all about safety’. It is ALL ABOUT TAXES, and a jobs program for cops.
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By Tim on Oct 2, 2008
I don’t speed around breaking traffic laws. I cannot speak for other cops. I follow the laws and enforce them in a fair manner.
For every ONE cop or family member I’ve given a warning to I’ve given THREE people who don’t know ANYBODY a verbal warning.
I don’t speed around breaking traffic laws. I cannot speak for other cops. I follow the laws and enforce them in a fair manner.
For every ONE cop or family member I’ve given a warning to I’ve given THREE people who don’t know ANYBODY a verbal warning.
Because the Gov of NJ, like almost all cops, feel they are ’special’ when it comes to speeding and other traffic infractions. Why won’t the cops on this blog even touch the issue of ‘professional courtesy’ and ticket fixing they give each other and extend to friends & family?
HYPOCRITES!!
You will have to ask him,
I didn’t vote for him, nor do I like his kind.
If traffic congestion is so prevalent in New Jersey, why was the governor driving 90 mph?
Why not 70? I can’t answer that. I would guess and say that NJ in 1974 is not NJ in 2008. Congestion in Northern NJ (1974) has been steadily spreading throughout the entire State.
70 on the interstate out in Neveda or something similar, ok. Drive in N.Jersey and look at the traffic, 4-8 lanes in each direction full of cars.
New Jersey had a 70 mph speed limit prior to 1974. Why only 65 now?
“they get used as the starting point for determining the infraction. If the traffic flow is 85/65 (not out of the ordinary in NY & NJ) and a car is pulled over for 90, the offense wouldn’t be 5 above the prevailing flow, it would be for driving 25 above the limit (a much more severe penalty).”
I have conversed with many NJ State Troopers via police traffic web pages. You had better watch that 85 number. I’ve seen many mention that they will write for that speed.
In addition, you can go to court for the “25 over” request a downgrade with no problem, therefore your getting the lower speed. Instead of 25 over, you get a 10-15 over, saving money and driver’s points.
Posting and adhering to one particular speed would be great, if people in this country were not conditioned for that 10 over. Now it seems many drivers want the 10 over, plus some more for when they are REALLY in a hurry. Get to that point and you’re tempting fate. Try and take it away and there would be hell to pay. This has always been a point of contention between the state representatives and the police. They are always interested in that extra miles per hour given away. This again goes back to getting the fastest drivers, rather than stopping for the 8-10 over drivers.
FYI, my police BMW is now working fine (new front tire). Before you start, it was a fair / government bid between Harley, Honda and BMW. They won fair and square!
********************************************
I do not believe officers are in favor of traffic light cameras. It is a result of the states legislature wanting more revenue while allowing the officers time to due other more mundane tasks. If you live long enough it is probable that you will run across an officer that is less than professional. In major metropolitan areas there is so much speeding that it is impossible to keep up with upholding the law, hence the cameras. But worse is yet to come as it will spread to interstates!!
I’d never call you a hypocrite, Tim. In fact, I don’t think we’re far off from each other in our overall views. Most officers target the fastest drivers, and this is probably why I’ve not been ticketed in over 10 years, despite my driving faster than almost everyone else. The “almost” is what keeps the police from following me.
So, we seem to be in agreement that the general rule is “don’t drive faster than everyone else”. However, an unfairness I hadn’t mentioned before (because I just thought of it), is that because the signs state some static number as a legal limit, they get used as the starting point for determining the infraction. If the traffic flow is 85/65 (not out of the ordinary in NY & NJ) and a car is pulled over for 90, the offense wouldn’t be 5 above the prevailing flow, it would be for driving 25 above the limit (a much more severe penalty).
It’s basically posting one law and enforcing another that has me frustrated.
Let me know when you get your motorcycle back so I can keep an eye out for you :)
I understand your worry about meeting different officers using their discretion in different ways. I would say that when you are on a particular road or within a particular jurisdiction, most officers will have a similar tolerance. The cities, towns and roads around you have reputations for certain levels of enforcement.
I mentioned in this thread that we would have to rely on the motorist to help themselves to determine what should clearly be a reasonable speed. Unfortunately many drivers just don’t pay attention for a multitude of reasons (whole other topic). Characteristics of your roadway including the type of road, traffic volume, pedestrian volume, type of area (be it residential, city, business or rural) all play into what a reasonable person should be aware of as they pass through. Sadly though, I don’t hold a lot of faith in the average driver. I’ve witnessed or have been a victim of their inability to seriously and properly keep their vehicles under control.
I have to go to work now. Don’t worry, my motorcycle is in for maintenance. I’ll be in the office all day. : )
In our part of the country I’ve never stopped someone for purely 10 over. I’ve almost never seen a case come to court for 10 over (that didn’t involve something else).
You and I have driven 10 over and almost never been stopped. I know you can call me a hypocrite for “speeding”, but I won’t waste my time stopping every car for 10 over. I strongly believe that the fastest drivers are the most dangerous ones. Similarly, if I spend my time stopping every car going 10 over, I’ll rarely get the ones who I believe are posing the most danger to the rest of the motoring public. I cannot sanction this, but it allows me to perform my traffic function in a fair and equal manner.
I’m NOT going to speak for some areas. I watched one of those speeding shows and was simply amazed that a California officer wrote someone for 5 over! I couldn’t believe it, the radar is generally given +- 3 mph, so why ding someone for 2 mph over???
I also must confess I recently issued a speeding ticket for less than ten. I observed the speeding, but several citizens called in and reported him passing ON THE SHOULDER. I could have had the citizens come to court, lost work hours (two or three times while he asked for postponements) written him reckless and improper passing, but I thought it was a sure thing if I gave him the speeding because of my observations. He knew what he did and didn’t say a word to me. I had just passed a family riding their bikes in the area his was speeding down the shoulder. Hopefully the people who called it in (I met with them and took all of their information IF I needed them for court) will help out again should the need arise.
I suppose (SOME) speed limits must be set for the least capable drivers of the herd.
{He pounds the police for not stopping him when he passes them by at 70/55???? The police are doing exactly what you say. They are using their judgement to say “he’s driving safely”.}
Tim,
I’m not saying that I want to be ticketed for driving 57/55 — what I want is simply to know the rules. Let’s say I pass by you driving 70/55 and you determine that my speed is safe, but then 10 miles down the road – under identical conditions – another officer pulls me over. Will my explanation that “the first officer thought my speed was fine 10 miles ago” get me out of a ticket with this second officer?
“If that is the case, then you need to present the actual city and time frame for evidence so that it can be examined because it does not fit with evidence gathered from exogenous sources.”………………….
Sorry, I don’t have the authority to provide these reports. Each one is about three inches thick and couldn’t be easily posted here. I was there, I wrote most of the reports.
“Is not the better solution in this case to re-engineer the crossing?”…………………………
If we scream any louder to the state I think our lungs will burst! They will not deal with it because of the prohibitively high cost of doing so. Regardless of that, the speeders on this road SHOULD be reasonable and prudent, but they are not. They are regularly given 15+ mph over the limit, but they want more.
“The most often check boxes are those to do with speed because LEOs know that checking that box is politically safe and in the absence of compelling contrary evidence use it as a default “cause.”……………………………
This is completely wrong. We conduct more than 2,000 crash investigations a year ranging from minor to bad. The item most selected is “driver inattention” by a FAR margin.
“You can refuse to cite drivers who are over the posted limit but well within the capabilities of the reasonable driver, vehicle and roadway.”
I thought this is what I said we were doing? I understand that the speed limits are SET and that’s it, but fortunately many police officers do what you are saying. They look at what’s reasonable and safe, then work from there. At some point you have to agree that cars driving through certain conditions MUST slow down (not under the limit, more like a reasonable speed). Look at your other posters talking at the 55 mph idea (which I am against). He pounds the police for not stopping him when he passes them by at 70/55???? The police are doing exactly what you say. They are using their judgement to say “he’s driving safely”. He makes reference to them doing nothing. You are damned if you do, damned if you don’t.
Police don’t set limits and have absolutely no power when it comes to influencing governments to change them. Yes, police can refuse to enforce speed limits that appear unfair. It happens more times than you think.
We are both knocking at the same house. You’re at the front, and I’m at the back. We have associates on both sides who are much more zealous in their view of our topic.
Tim writes:
{I know there are many animals on the internet that would purposely make these kinds of statements, but I can only say that if you have any kindling of a spark of belief, believe me when I tell you they are true.}
What you reference here is unclear. I am assuming that you refer to my distrust of your anecdotal stories. If that is the case, then you need to present the actual city and time frame for evidence so that it can be examined because it does not fit with evidence gathered from exogenous sources.
{One of my last crashes (not speed related) was a woman struck by a car crossing a busy five lane road. The road is grossly under engineered and outdated, BUT it is also one of the places I catch my worst speeders.}
Is not the better solution in this case to reengineer the crossing? Of course, it is but the usual response is to lower the limit and amplify enforcement, which we know from years of experience do not work.
{As for the government reports and studies. . . The information is gathered through a series of choices/blocks on the report which attempts to lay fault in the crash. Unfortunately you can only choose one. You choose the one that best fits the crash, regardless of all of the other factors. The reports are passed up the line (everyone in the state does the same form) and are [cannibalized] by someone working for the state. This information is passed on to the Federal Government or whoever is using it to conduct their own studies. The problem is, the further you get away from the initial crash investigator the harder it is to discern all of the elements of the crash. No one reads every report, they look at the cause number and move it into a nice column for that specific reason.}
Several observations: Some states provide “Other” as a choice with space for explanation. In any case, explanatory information can be put into the body of the report. The most often check boxes are those to do with speed because LEOs know that checking that box is politically safe and in the absence of compelling contrary evidence use it as a default “cause.” Even given the overuse of those boxes and the distillation of data by NHTSA, an openly anti-speed organization, NHTSA data do not support excessive speed as the killer portrayed in their verbiage. NHTSA data are a mixed bag because, while they are census-type data rather than samples, their source (police reports) is openly biased and they carefully avoid assigning causation by using the “xxxx-related” category, i.e., “alcohol-related” or “speed-related.” As an example of the efficacy of their data, consider what is missing: NHTSA has no category called “suicide,” yet we know for a certainty that people do commit suicide by driving into immovable objects. Different independent studies have estimated that suicide comprises anywhere from 4% to 16% of all fatalities.
{I was honest adding the snow and alcohol. I have several more from last year alone. I also prepared a year end report that gives an exact percentage of speed related fatals for 2007. I’ll get it when I go back to work next week and give you the exact number.}
I’d rather have the whole report.
{ . . .but [police officers] are left no option.}
You do have an option, several in fact. You can lobby for rational laws that concentrate on policies (laws) that actually have a correlation to improving key safety measures. You can concentrate on improving traffic flow rather than slowing everybody down. You can focus on impeders rather than speeders. You can refuse to cite drivers who are over the posted limit but well within the capabilities of the reasonable driver, vehicle and roadway. In Montana, 100 mph was considered R&P. Others states should implement similar plans. You could call for LE efficacy to be measured by changes in the 3 key safety measures rather than by motorist contacts or citations issued. You could call for removing all of the ancillary charges to traffic citations, 17 additional “funds” in San Diego according to a recent radio report. It is a very difficult thing to change one’s whole philosophy and view of the world. I challenge all you guys to show us just how tough you really are.
{ I do write more speeding tickets than most other violations, (except seatbelts). I had to think about it. It’s not easier to write speeders (more paperwork than a regular ticket) it’s not easier to testify (much, much more knowledge required for testimony) and I have to keep multiple, updated proofs for court that aren’t required AT ALL for other violations. Then why [do] I write more? I came to the conclusion that you have a greater exposure to the speeding ticket because your violation is much longer.}
Your observation that speeding provides greater exposure is correct. Unfortunately, we have spent billions on speeding while there is no correlation between “speeding” and the 3 key safety measures, therefore, there is no causation. In simpler terms, changing speed limits or drivers’ choices of speeds has no effect, IOW it is a worthless endeavor.
The 3 key safety measures are (1) the crash-rate, (2) the injury-rate, and (3) the fatality-rate, each per 100,000,000 VMT (vehicle miles traveled).
I know there are many animals on the internet that would purposely make these kinds of statements, but I can only say that if you have any kindling of a spark of belief, believe me when I tell you they are true.
My heart aches each time I think of them, especially the child who tried to wake up his mother. I was the investigator in each case mentioned. The woman had a fist size whole in the left temple area of her head. She was Asian with long, black beautiful hair that was flowing over her left face as her body was positioned with the head leaning out of her driver’s window. I didn’t see the damage at first. I was pre-occupied with the tree she struck. It was sturdy and did not move a bit. The minivan was very much in tact and I wondered why I was there that morning. I was about to lean on the tree to look into the car when I noticed the gelatin like substance on the tree in the approximate area of the driver. I looked closer and suddenly realized what it was. I moved her hair aside and saw the damage to her head. I scanned backward into the cabin and saw all of the child seats. I hoped they had faired better than the driver.
When I arrived at the hospital I attempted to speak with the father. He was sitting off to the side with his hands in his face crying. He never came out of that position for the hour I was there. The three children were climbing up and down several chairs, playing and laughing. The one who had the most injuries (mostly cuts and bruises) was the one who made the statement to me. I did everything I could not to cry.
I never minded looking at dead people before. When I began as a fatal accident investigator it opened up another side. Part of my job is to meet with and ascertain what the people were doing before the crash. I also make all notifications and handle the complete investigations, keeping in close contact with the families the entire time. I provide them my personal cell phone so they can call anytime. The bodies that never bothered me before (ten years in patrol) now became very real people with lives and families.
It’s now harder than ever to disassociate yourself. One of my last crashes (not speed related) was a woman struck by a car crossing a busy five lane road. The road is grossly under engineered and outdated, BUT it is also one of the places I catch my worst speeders. She went through the windshield of a car as she was crossing the road. She was poor, had no family and probably (was) missed by very few people, if anyone. She lived in a hotel room were she took public transportation back and forth to the nearby city. I noticed her dirty shirt with a poodle stitched on it. I imagined that she picked it up in a thrift store because she thought it was pretty. Her seedy hotel (one of many) on a specific side of the roadway causes these people to make dashes across five lanes in order to catch a bus that travels eastbound. There’s no two ways about it, YOU HAVE TO CROSS THIS ROAD. All I ever asked from drivers is that they give the pedestrians a chance. The limit is 45, but I regularly get speeds of 65-75 mph. The pedestrian usually get stuck in the center turn lane of the five because of the heavy traffic. I cringe watching them stand there so vulnerable in the roadway. I am merciless to people speeding through this area. I’ll generally give you over 60 in the 45 before I write. I try to get the fastest speeders and to be fair to the motoring public. If drivers on this road keep to a reasonable speed they MAY have a chance of stopping (stopping distance is directly associated with speed no matter how you cut it) before they strike the pedestrians.
As for the government reports and studies. Let me tell you I write thousands of these crash reports, from fatals to simple parking lot crashes. The information is gathered through a series of choices/blocks on the report which attempts to lay fault in the crash. Unfortunately you can only choose one. You choose the one that best fits the crash, regardless of all of the other factors. The reports are passed up the line (everyone in the state does the same form) and are catabolized by someone working for the state. This information is passed on to the Federal Government or whoever is using it to conduct their own studies. The problem is, the further you get away from the initial crash investigator the harder it is to discern all of the elements of the crash. No one reads every report, they look at the cause number and move it into a nice column for that specific reason.
1. Mom’s crash. Purely too fast on partially snow covered road. Speed main factor
2. Man who was to be a father. Purely too fast and had been consuming alcohol
3. Man driving home from work. Speed only, main factor….69/40 (from data recorder)
4. Man hit light signal. Speed only factor, left roadway.
I was honest adding the snow and alcohol. I have several more from last year alone. I also prepared a year end report that gives an exact percentage of speed related fatals for 2007. I’ll get it when I go back to work next week and give you the exact number.
I live and work in a state that is no where near any of the big western (read wide open) states. Our area is one of the most congested in the country with some of the oldest roads. There is no money to fix the roads to make them safer for the cars “that can drive faster”. The evolution of our highway system has not kept pace with the evolution of our autos.
I hate the fact that the insurance companies pound their customers and that the state double dips via the fine and the surcharges, but we are left no option. I got out of my way to help anyone who comes to court (if they want it). If someone consciously chooses to speed, then I have less mercy as compared to the person who cannot pass inspection because they have no money to fix their old car that has some obscure problem. Even then I give a wide berth to the speeders. Considering I am the worst, (for lack of a better term) officer to meet when it comes to writing speeding tickets, shows we (police in my state) are lenient as a whole.
Your talk on speeding in different parts of Texas makes my point exactly. If you install speed cameras you take away the discretion the officer may have to choose the areas he knows as bad or to take into account the size, design of road and time of day the violator is driving. These are all things I look at. The speeds around our area are generally the same, BUT I do not enforce them exactly the same. If the road is wooded, with no intersections, homes or businesses then I allow a greater tolerance for speeding. Conversely, if a different road with the same limit is poorly designed, over burdened with traffic, businesses or cross streets then I lower my tolerance. I would expect a normal person to be able to recognize the difference.
One more thought for a long post. I do write more speeding tickets than most other violations, (except seatbelts). I had to think about it. It’s not easier to write speeders (more paperwork than a regular ticket) it’s not easier to testify (much, much more knowledge required for testimony) and I have to keep multiple, updated proofs for court that aren’t required AT ALL for other violations. Then why to I write more? I came to the conclusion that you have a greater exposure to the speeding ticket because your violation is much longer. If you are speeding down a ten mile road your exposure is much greater than if you momentarily ran a red light, rolled through a stop sign, failed to signal a turn or cut someone off. That’s the only thing I could think of.
When you purchase your cars look for SIDE AND CURTAIN airbags. Also look for STABILITY CONTROL, not traction control. Stability control is a non-driver interactive device that allows the car to self correct a yaw when lateral stability is lost (skid sideways). This goes toward to the side and curtain airbags. When all else fails they will deploy giving you some protection at the weakest part of your vehicle (the side).
Good luck, I hope I never meet any of you! : )
Tim says:
“On average for the last 4 years these crashes have occurred every FIVE weeks in a City of 50,000. That’s about 40 bodies…”
Wow, that seems like a lot. That is getting close to the kind of traffic fatality rate one would expect to find in a major metro area with millions of people.
All the accidents you cited were single-vehicle loss-of-control; it seems like there may be more going on than just speeding. And the fact that you have bodies piling up that fast kind of proves that writing speeding tickets isn’t fixing the problem.
That said, I also want to say I certainly respect that you do what you working with the surviors of those tragic crashes; it is a selfless and honorable act.
Tim writes:
{Problem is, we haven’t improved OUR driving skills.}
So what? We now have more drivers and vehicles driving faster speeds on more than ever before and the key safety measures (see footnote 1) just keep getting better every year, so something right is happening. There is no correlation between speeds, speed limits or the level of enforcement and those key safety measures. NONE.
{I’ll certainly give you that, but MANY roads HAVE had their speeds increased to 65,70 and 75 mph, yet people still whine when they are caught speeding.}
As well they should. Why should drivers be punished for performing perfectly reasonable behavior? Speeds that would have once been considered reckless in West Texas (I-10 & I-20) are now legal. As I-40 leaves New Mexico and enters Texas, the speed limit drops from 75 to 70 mph, even though the roadway arguably gets better; 75 is legal in NM but will and does yield a citation in Texas under the same conditions. Where is the reasoning in that?
{You can read what you want off of your “list” or “study” but my view is first hand, right there, looking at the destroyed lives. YES, speed will ALWAYS be a factor in a crash.}
It isn’t my list. It comes from NHTSA, which gathers data from many different sources of which the primary one is police reports. So it’s actually a cops’ list. Even given the skewed source and the skew intent of NHTSA, they still cannot prove the case that higher speeds cause more crashes. Again, the totality of information says that higher speeds are producing fewer crashes and fewer fatalities per VMT. Further, it is tautological to assert that “speed” is a factor in crashes because every vehicle in motion has a certain speed.
Emotional snippets omitted because (1) I don’t believe them, (2) the information is insufficient to determine what “. . .too fast . . .” means, and (3) emotional appeals now fall on deaf ears because they have been overworked for 60 years.
However, I believe that we both seek the same goal: safer travel. I used to work in the emergency room of a major trauma hospital that served about 9 counties at that time, so I saw all kinds of horrible things that only solidified my resolve to make automobile travel safer. However, my academic training and point of view led me use the evidence rather than emotion to make policy decisions. Far too much of our law is based on emotion rather than reason and science. Further law enforcement has poorly served us not because of what they don’t know but because what they know for sure just ain’t so. (Thanks to Mark Twain).
{People would like to think that there is ONE smoking gun in a crash. There rarely is. Circumstances collide at a point in time when everything is just right to cause a catrastrophic crash. Speed can ALWAYS play a part, just like wearing you seatbelt, paying attention, not talking on your cell phone etc…. To dismiss speeding as not being a causation factor is wrong.}
“Speeding” is merely exceeding the posted limit. Nothing more, nothing less. “Speed too fast for conditions” is a quantum difference from ‘speeding” because it arises from physical laws and limits while “speeding” arises from the arbitrary decision of man. Do not confuse them. Do not purposely conflate them as has the safety lobby for 60 years. “Speeding” does not cause crashes. “Speed too fast for conditions” MAY be a contributing factor. 60 mph down the western side of Vail Pass on I-70 is perfectly legal but may be too fast for conditions in a ice storm. OTOH, 90 mph across I-70 in eastern Colorado is illegal but is still perfectly reasonable in clear, dry conditions. What does CSP look for? They guy running 90 mph safely all the while ignoring the guy running 5 under the limit but 30 mph over reasonable.
{You’re never going to convince me that issuing speeding tickets is the wrong thing.}
It isn’t up to me to convince anybody that speeding tickets is the wrong thing but rather up to those that claim a positive correlation to prove that speeding citations are the right thing to do, that is, that the issuance of speeding cites has a quantifiable and predictable effect on traffic safety. It does not and the safety lobby has been unable to make that positive case for over 60 years.
{Each time you deal with these VICTIMS you loose a little more. You cannot justify or convince yourself that they deserved it. I write them for safety sake, NEVER THE MONEY.}
I don’t doubt your sincerity; I doubt your reasoning. While I have heard many, many LEOs make the above claim, somehow all those speeding citations turn close to a hundred billion dollars a year over to governmental agencies. In any economic transaction, the money always leads to the truth.
If you are a cop who doesn’t speed then you are one of the few, and I have and had many cops as friends, acquaintance or fellow reservists. They all will PISS and moan about that time someone didn’t extend professional courtesy.
As for being in unmarked cares, they are out there. And out of uniform? Work in tandem, one car in civvies spots and reports to another who pulls the offender over. I see uniformed cops working speed traps that way (and so have you). I’ve seen the cop well hidden with radar and some measure down the highway you will see 1, 2, even 4 cars ready to pounce. Pull the trigger and reel them in. Easy.
Again, speed is one of MANY causes of accidents but the easy to turn into a revenue generator. The others require a cop to move unobserved and catch the moronic, the aggressive, the distracted, and the lazy.
But it isn’t about safety it is about revenue. And it is getting more and more so all the time, with public respect falling.
In NY state, the insurance companies were paying the law enforcement agencies to increase ticket writing. They call it a donation, but it is a bribe.
I’ve respected cops all my life but if I see a traffic cop with a flat, I hope there is a big puddle right on my way.
The unmarked car thing.
Our state rarely allows it because now people won’t stop because they think its someone imitating the police.
Our motorcycles are closest thing to that and they are all clearly marked and the officers wear uniforms.
NOT WEAR UNIFORMS?? Are you crazy?? It could be anyone pretending to be a cop. The public would be outraged if the officers arrest someone for failing to stop after being signaled to do so.
The way our department enforces speed limits has nothing to do with revenue.
Besides, the state gets most the money anyway.
Maybe they have “speed traps” in other places, but agressive enforcement in our area is related to complaints and accident data.
What is a speed trap anyway? Because a police officer is sitting on the side of the road running radar it’s suddenly a “speed trap?” If he is sitting in an area where the speed drops off in order to purposely take advantage of that, then YES I agree he is wrong.
Every time someone gets a speeding ticket they cry “speed trap” No, its not that….you were going 15+ the speed limit in an area you should not have.
It’s real easy. Today’s complainant about people speeding through their neighborhood is tomorrows speeder somewhere else who crys about a “speed trap”.
One of my favorite lines (when I give a warning) How would you like someone going 63 in a 45 through your neighborhood, where your kids are trying to place in their yards?
Usual answer: I wouldn’t like it. Funny thing is that I have actually caught the (previous speeding complainer) speeding somewhere else! What were you thinking????
If the cops get caught speeding on the camera……then thats on them. Let me make this clear:
I DON’T SPEED! I give many warnings. If there is a conspiracy to let police go, rest assured someone else who doesn’t know anyone is also let go.
I have always maintained a solid foundation based on my own character that I refuse to be a hypocrite. I can’t speak for other officer and frankly, I don’t care for those who write people tickets, then go and do the same thing.
If you think the photo-radar is a means to end the cops getting off tickets, then you’re welcome to it. I have nothing to worry about. Remember the old saying “don’t cut off your nose to spike your face.”
# Tim Ducked It Again. WON’T DARE ADDRESS “PERSONAL COURTESY”. If a cop driving for personal reasons doesn’t take is ticket like the rest of us, and doesn’t mention hois status as an officer, HE IS A HYPOCRITE. If he extends these courtesies top other officers, families & friends, if he ‘has a word’ with a court officer or clerk to help a family or friend, HE IS A HYPOCRITE.
By walkerny on Jun 13, 2008
It’s amazing that in post after post, the police officers here WILL NOT EVEN GO NEAR the hypocrisy of ‘professional courtesy’ being extended to other police, family and friends.
WON’T EVEN GO NEAR THE ISSUE!! Because you know it is hypocritical and indefensible.
You want to cut accidents? Get in an unmarked car, out of uniform and drive amongst us. Start catching the aggressive and lazy drivers we see all day. The people who don’t signal lane changes, follow to closely, put on makeup, cut people off, the idiots who hang their cars into traffic coming out of a parking lot and those who cut others off.
nope, that would not generate the revenue of a speed trap.
“We have improved our braking systems and our tires so that at a given speed, stopping distance is much less than it was 34 years ago when NMSL was implemented”…….
-Problem is, we haven’t improved OUR driving skills. ABS is a passive safety system, therefore YOU need to do something when the time comes. People still slam them on and drive right into the object, instead of steering while braking.
“If the sightline on an Interstate-grade roadway is 750 yards and the sightline on a secondary highway is 50 yards, why should they carry the same limit of 55 mph?”…….
-I’ll certainly give you that, but MANY roads HAVE had their speeds increased to 65,70 and 75 mph, yet people still whine when they are caught speeding. It’s common knowledge that if the limit is 55 traffic can easily flow at 65 w/o being ticketed. Some people may have gotten tickets for less, but they are certainly in the minority.
“Aside from the irrational emotional argument, speed too fast for conditions is very far down the list of causative factors in vehicle crashes. “Speeding” is not even on the list.”…….
You can read what you want off of your “list” or “study” but my view is first hand, right there, looking at the destroyed lives. YES, speed will ALWAYS be a factor in a crash. You want recent examples?
-Mom and three children, 3,4,5 yoa in minivan heading to church. Mom is driving too fast, looses control and strikes a tree on her driver’s side crushing her head. One of the three (unknown which) tries to wake mom up. At hospital 3 yoa pulls on my pant leg and tells me “I know my mommy’s dead”
-Man just found out great news about his wife. He leaves friend and drives home. He’s driving too quickly and crashes into tree. He hits his head on grab handle and dies. He was in his twentys and was going to be a father for the first time.
–23 yoa driving home after work. Driving too fast, looses control, goes off road and strikes semi-solid object. This object lodges under his vehicle and caues it to roll. He is partially ejected and the vehicle rolls over him five times. The next day I sit with his family on their porch discusses why their son was choosen.
–28 male, driving too fast, crosses center concrete curb, hits control box for light signal, then light signal itself. Car is rotated so violently that he is ripped from driver’s seat. He dies with gaping breathes on the concrete curb. His mother calls me every week for a month asking me the same questions: Did he suffer, what were his last words, did he ask for me?
I DON’T AGREE WITH CAMERA/SPEED ENFORCEMENT. I think an officer should be there to look at the totality of the circumstances.
” Nonsense, especially in view of the customary enforcement of traffic laws where speeding cites outnumber all others combined by more than 2:1. Note SPEEDING violations, not speed to fast for conditions or reckless driving”……..
People would like to think that there is ONE smoking gun in a crash. There rarely is. Circumstances collide at a point in time when everything is just right to cause a catrastrophic crash. Speed can ALWAYS play a part, just like wearing you seatbelt, paying attention, not talking on your cell phone etc…. To dismiss speeding as not being a causation factor is wrong.
You’re never going to convince me that issuing speeding tickets is the wrong thing. Each time you deal with these VICTIMS you loose a little more. You cannot justify or convince yourself that they deserved it. I write them for safety sake, NEVER THE MONEY.
On average for the last 4 years these crashes have occurred every FIVE weeks in a City of 50,000. That’s about 40 bodies, give or take a few (what’s one more body to think about for my emotional response?).
It’s amazing that in post after post, the police officers here WILL NOT EVEN GO NEAR the hypocrisy of ‘professional courtesy’ being extended to other police, family and friends.
WON’T EVEN GO NEAR THE ISSUE!! Because you know it is hypocritical and indefensible.
You want to cut accidents? Get in an unmarked car, out of uniform and drive amongst us. Start catching the aggressive and lazy drivers we see all day. The people who don’t signal lane changes, follow to closely, put on makeup, cut people off, the idiots who hang their cars into traffic coming out of a parking lot and those who cut others off.
nope, that would not generate the revenue of a speed trap.
Tim writes:
{People die everyday in car crashes. Speed = longer stopping distance / less reacton time which = dead people!}
You have omitted about 2/3 of the pertinent facts. We have improved our braking systems and our tires so that at a given speed, stopping distance is much less than it was 34 years ago when NMSL was implemented. You also failed to note the other technological improvements in cars and roads that were implemented with the expressed purpose of allowing faster speeds. If the sightline on an Interstate-grade roadway is 750 yards and the sightline on a secondary highway is 50 yards, why should they carry the same limit of 55 mph?
The fact is that higher speeds to not translate into more dead people.
{Not drug dealers shooting it out with each other or functioning drunks figthing with each over and over. No these are soccer moms driving to the store, your wife, son or daugther that gets ripped to pieces because someone feels they need to get to the home depot faster.}
Aside from the irrational emotional argument, speed too fast for conditions is very far down the list of causative factors in vehicle crashes. “Speeding” is not even on the list.
{Yes crimes do need attention, but don’t think for a minute that committing motor vehicle violations is a victimless incident.}
Nonsense, especially in view of the customary enforcement of traffic laws where speeding cites outnumber all others combined by more than 2:1. Note SPEEDING violations, not speed to fast for conditions or reckless driving. The level of enforcement has had no discernable effect on key safety measures for as long as we have been keeping records. If you have something to prove your assertion, now is the time to present it.
People die everyday in car crashes. Speed = longer stopping distance / less reacton time which = dead people!
Not drug dealers shooting it out with each other or functioning drunks figthing with each over and over. No these are soccer moms driving to the store, your wife, son or daugther that gets ripped to pieces because someone feels they need to get to the home depot faster.
Yes crimes do need attention, but don’t think for a minute that committing motor vehicle violations is a victimless incident.
Re: “Crash Investigator”
BULLSHIT AGAIN!!
“Seeing how some of these people get cranked up so much over something so minor makes me wonder how they handle real crisis. ”
Something so minor? The fines are now several hundred dollars, and the extra insurance cost could bring it to a thousand or more over time!
If it is something so MINOR, how come cops give eachother ‘professional courtesy’, (and to their wives, family, girlfriends and friends they give business cards). if it was MINOR and SAFETY RELATED, they would pay for THEIR speeding too, but they DON’T.
Most of the accidents I’ve ever nearly been involved in were bonehead plays you will never catch from your speed traps.
Why do you employ static speed traps? Because it is all about REVENUE GENERATION.
That’s what burns us, the hypocrisy and duplicity of cops letting each others and friends and family out of tickets, and the damn taxation by other means. Start busting meth labs and bad guys, or get an honest job. Don’t be a hypocritical revenue agent for the government and expect our continued respect.
Bullshit, I have never seen a cop do the speed limit, or use a directional. they think they are above the law.. how about drunk cop softball players!!
GOOD GAWD,
Sheesh guys, you have a skewed sense of reality. Yeah, all the Cops I work with are going to lie about writing you a speeding ticket, just to put their livelyhood on the line. NOT, get a clue people, the Cops don’t have to make shit up, there is so much out there it is not even a minor truth. Now in Jamica where the Cops don’t get paid unless they stop morotists, sure. Oh, and that Cop that is following you, maybe he just happens to be going the same direction you are? You just happen to be in front of him? I can tell you that the Cop behind you is not watching you, he know’s you know he’s there. He is watching 3 or 4 cars ahead, or the ones passing. Where some people dream this left field crap up just amazes me. Oh my, a speeding Cop! I got a news flash for you, if he’s comming to my house he damn well better be speeding! My Mother actually bitched about a Cop sitting on the side of the road, she assumed he was running radar. He was actually pulled over so he could talk on the cell phone, and eat his lunch between calls. Funny how we base reality on our perceptions, that are based on our biases. Trust me when I say the Cops have better things to do than pick on you. So you might get a speeding ticket (if you’re caught speeding) So the F#*$ what! Do you bitch so much when you get into a crash? The other driver was speeding or ran the red light and the Cops did not stop him? Reality is that sometimes you might be the one in a crash that was speeding. Seeing how some of these people get cranked up so much over something so minor makes me wonder how they handle real crisis. Like the license plate bracket says, “Get a grip, it was only a lane change.”
“‘You can’t have one set of laws for police officers and another one for the rest of the world,’ [Chief] Andrews said.”
The hilarity here is that this is precisely what is NOT happening. By applying the SAME law to government-owned cars that the government feels is perfectly fair to apply to privately-owned cars, the government is now being victimized the same way they victimize us.
What Andrews WANTS is a higher burden of proof for government cars than he is willing to grant private citizens.
Hypocrite!
It’s about money for sure. I live in Beaverton Oregon. The cameras went up, the yellow light time was shortened 1.5 seconds, and the money started rolling in. hg
I agree. Speeding cameras just went up where i live in within the first month the city raked in over 6 million in citations. Definately not chump change. This again is supposedly earmarked for public safety and road maintenance in the city however, the department is understaffed and the rodes suck.
The speed cameras in Montgomery County were NOT placed based upon known safety issues. Instead, they were placed in locations believed to generate ticket volume. This information is readily available by doing some basic online searches.
By the end of January 2008, the speed cameras in Montgomery County generated over 100,000 tickets to the tune of $4 Million in revenue.
The fines are allegedly earmarked for public safety, yet the county has frozen police hiring and eliminated numerous police units (inlcuding overtime, etc). Safety? No. Revenue? Yes! Corrupt? Yes!
Monkey County at its best!
I don’t see double standard. I see the dept. not paying their fine. They own the cars. (Owner Pays) not driver.
Thanks RICK GOLD. Well I’m simply trying to start a dialog but I’m afraid your right. As I stated in some other post, citizen apathy is running rampant. The special interest groups and lobbies dictate the direction this country moves. These include the Municipal groups and law enforcement groups of which there are many. Democracy for the masses really is in a downward spiral. Rome lasted a thousand years, I doubt we are going to get that far. There has been a number of books published recently touching on this. When it comes right down to it, we have no one but ourselves to blame. Absent our presence at the legislative table, the lobbyist has replaced us and I assure you they DO NOT have yours or my interest in mind.
Recently I heard a theory about the lack of citizen involvement. It’s actually a study in psychology. Humans do not do well in a self government environment. They trend toward authoritative, directorship types of leadership. Governments in which citizens don’t have to think, just do what they are told. It sounds plausible. Another says that we are, at the moment, to comfortable in our own skins. We have too many outside interests. We forget about citizenship. Given the state of our education, I doubt if they even teach civics anymore. We have it too good. Many are pretty well off economically. We have little or no pain to move us. Given that scenario this experiment in democracy may fizzle out well before it’s time.
As I stated before, we know the problems with traffic control and we are in bad need of reforms but we seem to be in a state of paralysis. What we are operating under in traffic control/justice system is the lowest common denominator.
JAMES,…true that….try PBS on a regular basis and you will accumulate some hefty goods…also, I can listen to the BBC for 15 minutes and know acutely more about what’s going on in America than a month of American broadcast and print media provides…the BBC and PBS/NPR have the resources to dig, and they provide hardcore unbiased information.
The lifeblood of any reporter or any media outlet is access to the powers that be. On a national level, the Cheney/Bush administration has elevated this to a fine art, effectively isolating any reporter and their employer who dared question the “facts” as presented by spin doctors. Consider the earliest days of the invasion in Iraq when reporters were ‘embedded” with certain parts of the military, meaning, of course, that they military could control what was seen and reported. Remember how the Cheney/Bush administration forbids showing flag-draped coffins both in Iraq and coming off the planes here in America?
Far too often these media outlets are simply mouthpieces for the powers that be, regurgitating press releases verbatim as though it were original to the news outlet. How many fake reporters and paid hacks do we have to have before we say Enough!? The same thing is true on the state and local level where a reporter will almost always ask the opinion of IIHS about any traffic safety issue, all without knowing or caring that the last thing IIHS wants out in the public domain is the truth.
It is very hard work to obtain accurate and timely information, especially where the original sources/perpetrators do not want anybody to know.
Rick..10-4…the vast majority of the population has it’s head in the sand and is extremely uninformed….the newspapers and broadcast media do not get the job done.
JOE,
ALL THAT YOU SAY IS ACCURATE AND WELL INTENDED. HOWEVER, WE ARE IN THE ERA OF THE ACQUIESCENT CITIZEN. THE BRUTAL TRUTH IS THAT FOLKS WILL LET THEMSELVES BE ABUSED, WILL LET THEIR FREEDOMS BE STOLEN, WILL LET THEIR MONIES BE TAKEN, ALL BY OUR GOVERNMENT, AND SIMPLY DON’T FEEL THAT PROTEST AGAINST THESE ACTIONS WILL EVER REALLY BE HEARD, MUCH LESS MAKE ONE WIT OF DIFFERENCE.
ADDITIONALLY, WE HAVE VAST NUMBERS OF LIBERAL FOLKS, WHO FEEL THAT INCREASED REGULATION AND GOVERNMENT INVOLVEMENT IN OUR LIVES, EVEN IF IT MEANS SUBTRACTIONS FROM OUR WALLETS, SUPPORT THAT KIND OF GOVERNMENT AND LAW ENFORCEMENT ACTIVITY.
WE’RE IN THE SOUP IN THIS COUNTRY AND IT AIN’T PRETTY.
SORRY FOLKS, BUT THAT’S HOW I SEE IT.
RICK GOLD
Again James is right on. I don’t want to discourage anyone from contacting their public elected officials but do it in an “educated” manner. By that I mean know your subject well. There’s enough information on the NMA web site and all the postings that you should have enough “cannon fodder” for a long time. You don’t need to be an author but writing is a communication media and as such the better you write the better your going to legitimize yourself to the person on the receiving end. It hurts our cause when you go off half cocked. It’s not good enough to just state that you hate speed traps. E.g. don’t act stupid. I like to not only state the obvious problems with traffic control but offer suggestions. Simply complaining about something and offering no solutions will not impress anyone. I believe the NMA has good suggestions on do’s and don’ts and how to communicate with your legislators. Focus on a single issue. Don’t confuse the situation by throwing a bunch of issues in your communication. Keep your communication concise and short as possible.
Here’s an example things you could work on in your individual states that could make a difference; In legislative circles recognized as traffic control reform; Lets just take one of my pet peeves, traffic ticket quota’s. In my state of Oklahoma they are legal. That’s something that needs to change and it’s a easy argument to make. I actually was able to get a bill introduced a few years ago but it couldn’t climb out of the committee. It’s something simple that anybody can understand and why it should be illegal? It’s unethical for starters. Unethical behavior is generally considered inappropriate in any governmental environment. For those of you who already have quota laws, how do you make them more effective. In doing my research from what I’ve been able to glean from the posts and articles on the Internet, some quota laws are not very effective. Do your research and find out why your particular states’ quota law(s) don’t work. Then devise amendments to the existing law to correct those loopholes that allow law enforcement and municipalities to get around. Another part of this strategy I believe can be used to our advantage is a split can be developed between municipal governments and police chiefs (management) on one side. Conversely I would think that most law enforcement officers would like to be completely free of any kind of quota system. Believe it or not, I’ve concluded that there are some officers that hate to write traffic tickets about as much as we like to be on the receiving end. Quota’s are forced on them by police management. Does it not make sense then that some reduction of speed traps could be expected by eliminating this unethical practice?
Another project. If your state has no speed trap law, work on getting one passed in your state legislature. If you do have a speed trap law, work on getting the threshold reduced or restrict the amount of revenue a municipality can keep. E.g. the conflict of interest. Conflict of Interest is another easy argument and it absolutely exists with traffic control . Further, lets get some transparency going in traffic control. Lets require all traffic courts to classify this data and report it to the state for Internet publishing. Consider, why is it that you can find out every aspect about accidents, just don’t listen to NHTSA or the insurance institutes, yet not the enforcement side of the equation? Why the absence of this information? Why do municipalities treat this data almost like a state secret (and doing a pretty good job of it). Could the revelation of this information help to dispel the notion that all these speeding citations are senseless for accident prevention but very lucrative for the enforcing entity? I sense it would.
These are but a few examples of how we as members of the driving public and the NMA can turn the tables in our favor for a change. I’m sure many of you can expand on this. Lets start making noise.
When NMA posts a new story in these blogs, they should provide the email, physical address and phone numbers of the agencies involved, as well as the email, physical address and phone numbers of the state legislators, mayor and city councils, or county commissioners. Outrage needs to be reflected toward targets where it will do some good but it needs to be done quickly. I urge the responders to keep it clean, keep it articulate, review your post for misspellings and poor grammar.
There’s a common theme that runs through all these blog/posts. Start with any subject and it’s usually ends talking about speed traps or speeding and the police. There’s enough hot air generated to run a city. I say “hot air” not in a negative sense but because hot air is a form of energy. The million dollar question here and now has to be; how do we take all this energy and convert it into doing something about the problem?
We’ve sliced it, diced it, massaged it. We’ve rolled it and knead it. We’ve debated and argued it until we’re blue in the face. How much do we need to further this discussion when we already know what most of it boils down. We’ve got an abundance of input. We’ve analyzed it a thousand different ways. We’ve rehashed it a thousand times. Now, isn’t it time to do something about it? Talk is cheap. When are we going to turn our word processors on the politicians who run the show. When are we going to inundate the politicians with emails of protest. When are we going start making noise in the right places. Now that we’ve generated perhaps ten’s of thousands of words in all these NMA blogs (and others), isn’t it finally time to act? We see the outcry. Where’s the brainstorm. Where’s the bloggs that allow us to toss idea’s around?
Why can’t some of you from the same state organize and focus on issues. I’ve tried but my state of Oklahoma is hopeless but perhaps your’s is not. Lets see a test case on some state. Put the pressure on. Get some legislation passed that disincentives speed traps. Lets get passionate about finally doing something. Ideas?
In the mid 1950s, right after the Turner Turnpike opened between Tulsa and OKC, there was an OHP trooper who used to get right up behind drivers at night without even headlights. One night a little old lady saw something in her mirror, panicked and hit her brakes. The trooper hit her, killing himself and injuring her. I don’t know the legal proceedings thereafter (because I was only 8 or so). I do know that they don’t do that anymore.
Try slamming on the brakes when the pig is tailgating you right when the light turns yellow. The pig thinks you will just go through but when he rearends you he has NO excuse ! You stopped for a yellow !
FEDUPYO seaks to the truth of a different, but highly related issue in the fact that Democracy in America remains in name only.
I LIVE IN MONTGOMERY COUNTY AND HAVE HAD TO DEAL WITH SLOWING TRAFFIC DUE TO OVERBUILDING, NOW WE HAVE THESE #$*%&*!CAMERAS TO SLOW IT EVEN MORE! PEOPLE ARE SPEEDING TO MAKE UP FOR THE LOST TIME WHEREVER THEY CAN. I HAVEN’T BEEN ON TIME IN 3 YEARS. THESE “OFFICERS” SHOULD BE FORCED TO PAY THEIR FINES. IF THEY DON’T, WE – THE TAXPAYER, WILL END UP PAYING FOR THEIR TICKETS ANYWAY. THESE CAMERAS ARE ONLY A MONEY MAKING DEVICE FOR THE COUNTY, AS THEY ARE ALL INSTALLED ON DECLINES WHICH FORCE YOU TO BRAKE BEFORE THE CAMERA. I FEEL SORRY FOR OUT OF TOWNERS, AS THE SPEED CAMERA WARNING SIGNS ARE ONLY 100 FEET BEFORE THE CAMERA – NOT ENOUGH TIME TO SLOW DOWN. THE COUNTY GOVERNMENT PUT ONE ON MY ROAD WHERE THERE HASN’T BEEN AN ACCIDENT FOR AS LONG AS I CAN REMEMBER AND I’VE BEEN THERE FOR 20+ YEARS. ONE OF THE COUNTY COUNCIL MEMBERS SAID “IT’S FOR MOTORISTS SAFETY”.THEY JUST WANT YOUR MONEY TO COVER THEIR FAILURE TO MANAGE A BUDGET LIKE EVERYONE ELSE HAS TO DO. HELL, THE COUNTY EXECUTIVE EVEN DECIDED TO INSTALL A NEW $65,000.00 PRIVATE BATHROOM IN HIS OFFICE WHILE TRYING TO CUT $300 MILLION OUT OF THE BUDGET. I THINK THE COUNTY GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES THOUGHT PROCESS IS “LET THE MIDDLE CLASS PAY FOR IT!” I PAY SOME OF THE HIGHEST TAXES IN THE COUNTRY AND THEY JUST KEEP HITTING US WITH NEW FEES AND TAXES, BUT THE COPS DON’T HAVE TO PAY. I’M JUST ABOUT READY TO PACK UP AND MOVE, EVEN THOUGH MY FAMILY AND ELDERLY MOTHER (WHO NEEDS MY ASSISTANCE) LIVE IN THIS AREA. LIVING HERE HAS BECOME DEPRESSING AND OPPRESSIVE. THANKS BIG BROTHER, HOPE YOU ENJOY YOUR BATHROOM!
“So basically, they’ve decided to exploit the flaw in the system that they helped create. The article continues:”
Define some of these words: they, exploit, flaw and most importantly HELPED CREATE.
Do you really think for a second that rank and file police helped create the photo radar system???? They don’t like it anymore than the rest of the people. You do know that EVERY cop has to identify the operator of a vehicle he issues a summons to, except if it’s some type of photo system.
So, setting aside all the cop bashing and tin flashing these cops are pointing out a way that ANY citizen in this area can get out of THEIR speeding ticket (they know it’s not proper)
Who do you….as “regular” drivers believe you’ll have a better chance of getting a warning from: the photo ticket writer or some face to face cop?
Finally….10 over the limit??? Give me a break, everybody does that. Most complainers forget to mention the exact speed limit they got nabbed for. 15, 20 or 25+ over the limit. Unsafe in many circumstances.
I agree. I’ve been with large numbers of cops in my reserve unit and socially. The number one thing they whine about is when another cop doesn’t give them ‘professional courtesy’ when they are caught speeding.
The police will never be held to the same standards as the public…this traffic issue is minor compared to the “justification” of police-caused deaths….just look at how many police go scott free when they cause a death with gunfire when the ‘eminent threat’ they face turns out to be some ridiculous lame nothing…the cops can violate any traffic law they want to…it’s called “in the line of duty”.
I can’t wait until they start putting distancing measuring control devices on the vehicles to sense distance to the vehicle in front of you. You could basically set the distance and let your vehicle follow the one in front of you. It should cut down on a lot of rear enders. I believe the technology is already available, I don’t understand why it’s not being employed. LIDAR is just laser measuring equipment that measures the distance a vehicle travels in a given amount of time and calculates the speed.
There were studies of ways to avoid accidents, and it was discovered that people of small stature, novices, people sitting too far back, and the elderly did not brake hard enough, early enough, and/or maintain high level deceleration.
So ‘BrakeAssist’ came about.
In the early W210 E-class, Mercedes implementation was a solenoid that interacts with the brake booster. BrakeAssist works by applying maximum power assist. This more than likely will push the brake system into ABS activation. So long as people remember ’stomp, stay, steer’ things will work out fine, and the car STOPS, now.
Now, how does MB determine when to activate the solenoid? There is a sensor to determine the position/velocity of the brake pedal. If you jam on the brakes with sufficient velocity, viola you are effectively the Incredible Hulk.
BMW had BrakeAssist on the 1997 5-series. Their implementation was based on the ABS module. If BrakeAssist is called for, the ABS goes into maximum actuation.
The only way to deactivate BrakeAssist (once triggered) is to completely lift off, so the brake light switch is turned off.
I had first hand knowledge of this. I had a BMW 530i to 120mph and jammed the brakes [fully]. I modulated brake intensity at 80mph, yet there wasn’t any reduction in rate of deceleration. This puzzled me, as I though the ABS was malfunctioning. So I completely lifted at 60mph.
Vehicles that have BrakeAssist should be required to have an adaptive LED CHMSL brake light. When BrakeAssist is activated, by the computer-not the driver, the following driver should have a fighting chance to not rear end the car/truck. S/he needs to know that vehicle will decelerating at their tires limit.
So if you have all-season tires, and the person in front of you has grippy summer tires, you will be at fault for the machinations of a computer, and the complete obsolescence of FMVSS108 [the one regarding lights]
What do you mean by “Brake Assist”
I assume you are not refering to the electronic “BAS” systems on newer cars…
Tailgating cops have been a real problem for a long time. The Brake Assist really works. A friend of mine used it and got a new car from the state, got the trooper fired, and collected a nice cash settlement in the deal.
Wouldn’t advise doing it unless you are prepared for a real bang up experience though. Could hurt a bit.
My golden rule is if a cop starts following me, I pull off and stop at the first opportunely. Either give me a ticket or get off my a…..s. There’s absolutely no excuse for that activity, I’ve also had it happen to me a couple times.
Tailgating cops?
Get Brake Assist.
You then call 911 and report that you have been rear ended, another police officer is then dispatched [and an ambulance]
Cop gets fired.
The police are the biggest liar on the face of the earth so they could easily beat a ticket in court. If you don’t believe me pay close attention the shows like “Cops” and you’ll see even the narrator can’t tell the truth most of the time.It’s a joke when they tell us not to lie to them because they don’t like liars but under the scope of the law they are allowed to lie in their crime investigations. There’s no way you can lie on your job on a daily basis and not become a liar the rest of the time, you become what you practice. Just how many of you have actually caught a cop telling the truth when you’ve been stopped for a minor violation? Probably none because that’s not their “MO”.
Screw the speeding cameras, and all the money they charge people. If we don’t have enough money to pay cops to watch for speeders, then maybe speeding isn’t a high priority. these cameras are just another way that private interprises cost us money in our private lives. Stop this crap.
[...] England, the cops give the thumbs up to speeding cameras. In Maryland, the cops are not only refusing to pay for speeding tickets, as advised by their union, they’re… In response to the "gesture of defiance," County Council Member, Phil Andrews, said, [...]
The “Brass Pass” is how a co-worker of mine who became a cop referred to his badge.
That intimidation by tailgating is very popular with the California Highway Patrol. I’ve experienced it several times where a CHP car comes up behind me fast and then hangs inches from my bumper. No lights; I change lanes and he stays with me for three or four minutes only to veer off and tailgate another vehicle.
I can only assume they are trying to pressure the driver into speeding or swerving so they have an excuse to pull you over.
{ He said he did too and that was why he became a cop, so he could drive fast and not get in trouble for it.}
Yea dan, we used to have a part time officer that worked with us and he bragged about the same thing. We see speeding officers here in Okla. all the time. We don’t think much about it anymore. If you challenge a cop on the Internet on the issue they come up with all kinds of excuses. Even if they are on a legitimate “run” they rarely have their sirens and or lights on. Here’s what I’m talking about; http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7654&whichpage=1
The other day on the way to work (I work afternoons) I saw a “unmarked” cop car going about 90 mph down one of our local expressways, no lights or siren, trying to catch someone who he finally pulled over about three miles up the road. I was in the middle lane of three lanes, early in his pursuit so I could see everything from behind. Traffic was moderate. It was the middle of the afternoon. He’s flying up behind cars, switching lanes, back and forth, driving like a manic for those three miles…with no hint to the drivers he’s a cop. The traffic was literally confused and in disarray in the vicinity he was driving. Unmarked cop cars for misdemeanor traffic stops should be stopped. Imposers are increasingly taking advantage of the situation. Law Enforcement will do anything to write tickets now-a-days. Follow the money.
Everyone knows cops are the biggest crooks out there.
Check out the website copswritingcops.com and you’ll see the cops howl in indignation when another cop actually writes them a ticket. It’s amusing at first, but quite sickening after a while.
Now it’s a machine writing them a ticket. They’ve lost their thin blue line that lets them get away with their offenses. They’re being treated the same way they treat us, and they don’t like it.
I’ve always wondered just what are the valid reasons for cops to exceed the speed limit? One sheriffs deputy pulled me over for speeding and asked me if I liked to drive fast, to which I replied I did like driving fast. He said he did too and that was why he became a cop, so he could drive fast and not get in trouble for it. I didn’t say anything further but he left me thinking that there aren’t supposed to be two sets of rules. That is one of the reasons I could never be a cop. I couldn’t be so hypocritical as to give someone a $120 ticket for doing something I’ve done so often.
FOLKS,
WOW !!!! THIS IS JUST TOO GOOD !!! EVEN WHEN THE COPS CAN’T USE THEIR “GET OUT OF JAIL FREE CARDS” WHEN CAUGHT COMMITTING A TRAFFIC VIOLATION, THEY FLIP OFF THE CAMERA KNOWING THEY HAVE YET ANOTHER MECHANISM OF SUBTERFUGE TO BEAT THE SYSTEM.
WE ARE TRULY “THROUGH THE LOOKING GLASS”.
RICK GOLD