How To Objectively Identify Unsafe Drivers
October 15th, 2008 Posted in Eric Peters, Insurance Companies, Speed Limits, Traffic Tickets
By Eric Peters, Automotive Columnist
For years I have been arguing that the most objective — and perhaps, definitive — measure of a driver’s ability to drive safely is whether he or she has been involved in an at-fault accident.
Speeding tickets, for example, don’t really tell us whether a person is a safe/competent driver. They just tell us that person was caught driving faster than a number posted on a sign — which may be illegal, but by no means necessarily unsafe.
For example, it’s today perfectly legal to drive 65 or 70 mph on most highways. But during the “Drive 55″ era, such speeds were illegal. Did it suddenly become safe to drive at 65 or 70 on those same roads? Of course not. The law changed, that’s all.
Also: Skill varies. Some drivers are perfectly able to handle a car at 80 or 90 mph as well or better than some drivers can handle the same car at 60 mph. But the system considers the former as an “unsafe driver” simply by dint of his faster driving.
The point being, faster drivers aren’t necessarily unsafe drivers.
Insurance industry stats bear this out, incidentally. Faster drivers actually tend to have fewer accidents than slow-pokes. Also, while it’s true that driving faster can increase the amount of damage/severity of injury if there’s a crash, it does not follow that the risk of having a crash increases simply because “x” is traveling faster than “y.”
Unfortunately, our dumbed down speed limits force everyone to drive at the level of the least competent. We also do nothing meaningful to deal with those marginal/iffy drivers. They can have multiple at-fault accidents — and their license will be in less peril than the driver who has never had an at-fault accident but who has a couple “reckless driving” tickets — which in many states are issued as a matter of course for merely driving faster than 20 mph over the posted limit. (During the “Drive 55″ era, one could get a “reckless driving” cite for doing 76 mph on the freeway. Today the exact same speed is either legal — or a minor ticket.)
It’s nonsense.
Rather than fixate on all these “technical fouls” such as driving faster than a number posted on a sign, why not focus on those drivers who have actually given definitive proof their judgment or skill (or both) is lacking? Driving 80-something mph in a modern car on a modern Interstate highway is only “reckless” in the BS language of the insurance cartels and state/local authorities who make money on this scam.
However, if a driver blows through a red light and strikes another vehicle that had the right of way, that is incontrovertible evidence of “reckless driving.”
Yet our system focus to an overbearing extent on statutory “speeding” enforcement, with driving faster than a number on a sign the main thing the safety lobby drones on about endlessly about — and the primary offense traffic cops spend their time dealing with.
Objectively dangerous conduct behind the wheel — the driver who wanders across the double yellow while gabbling away on her cell; the guy riding inches off the bumper of the car ahead of him — is routinely ignored by traffic cops.
Until it causes an accident.
And even then, the consequences are generally less serious than they would be if the driver had been nabbed for doing 80-something — even if no metal was crunched and no one was hurt. A minor ticket might be issued as a result of one car plowing into the rear end of another that was stopped at a light. It is by no means certain. But have the misfortune to drive by a radar trap and it’s a sure bet you’ll be going home with a piece of payin’ paper in your pocket.
Are the roads any safer as a result? Or have the coffers of the state just gotten a little fatter?
The sensible alternative ought to be this:
Whenever a driver is involved in an at-fault accident, he should be issued a ticket for unsafe driving (specifics to be defined based on the particulars of each case) and required to undergo a DMV evaluation that includes a re-test of basic skills and knowledge. And that means real test — not the sad little pro forma drill they do in most states today. In other words, a test that is actually possible to fail — and which requires the person to demonstrate higher than Forrest Gumpian levels of knowledge and skill. An actual road test on actual roads should be part of the deal, too — along with a physical check-up of vision and so on.
I’m not talking race car driver skill levels — or insisting upon visual acuity good enough to make it as an airline pilot. But enough skill — and good enough vision — to be a competent driver and less of a risk to others out there, as well as oneself.
We need to weed out the barely marginal (and sub-marginal) drivers out there; often, these are people who never speed — and so fly under the radar.
Until they cause an accident, of course. At that point, red flags should be hoisted.
If a driver who has already been involved in one at-fault accident has another at-fault accident within a 5 year period, their driving privileges should be suspended until they have taken and passed (at their expense) a comprehensive driver training course that intensively focuses on basic skills/competence.
If they cannot pass, they cannot drive.
A third at fault accident in any five year period should result in permanent revocation of driving privileges for at least five years.
Some people should just take the bus.
But it’ll never happen because of the money and power derived from the current system — and because this country is afflicted with an entitlement mentality and poisoned by the notion that everyone’s “equal.”
Which of course, they’re not.
Comments?
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Quote from the article((Whenever a driver is involved in an at-fault accident, he should be issued a ticket for unsafe driving (specifics to be defined based on the particulars of each case) and required to undergo a DMV evaluation that includes a re-test of basic skills and knowledge. And that means real test — not the sad little pro forma drill they do in most states today. In other words, a test that is actually possible to fail — and which requires the person to demonstrate higher than Forrest Gumpian levels of knowledge and skill. An actual road test on actual roads should be part of the deal, too — along with a physical check-up of vision and so on.))
Phil replies(The person who wrote this is an idiot. I find it particularlt troublesome when an organization such as the NMA feels that speeding, drunk driving and running red lights should not be enforced. Then the print an article like this one where they call for tickets for UNSAFE driving and require the ticket recipient to undergo a DMV evaluation that includes a re-test of basic skills and knowledge. Requiring this evaluation and retest based soley upon the reciept of the citation violates the driver’s right to due process(I thought the NMA fought for the rights of all north American motorists) yet in an article they published it is implied that this can be circumvented.)
Quote from article((I’m not talking race car driver skill levels — or insisting upon visual acuity good enough to make it as an airline pilot. But enough skill — and good enough vision — to be a competent driver and less of a risk to others out there, as well as oneself.
We need to weed out the barely marginal (and sub-marginal) drivers out there; often, these are people who never speed — and so fly under the radar.))
Phil replies(Apparently this person has never read any of the studies that link higher speeds with higher crash rates and/or higher risk of injury and fatality. Likely the author of this article is a road rage driver complaining about the driving of everyone around them all because traffic is heavy enough that he can’t speed all the way home.)
Quote from article((Until they cause an accident, of course. At that point, red flags should be hoisted.
If a driver who has already been involved in one at-fault accident has another at-fault accident within a 5 year period, their driving privileges should be suspended until they have taken and passed (at their expense) a comprehensive driver training course that intensively focuses on basic skills/competence. ))
Phil replies(Since the at fault drivers are more times than not the speeding drivers then we should be pre-emptive and suspend thier driving privileges after the second speeding citation and return it after they have completed a course on how to read the words “Speed Limit” and how to count high enough to know where the 65mph mark is on the speedometer(and we should make this at thier expense).
Quote from the article((If they cannot pass, they cannot drive.))
OK if the speeders can’t pass the course they don’t get thier driving privileges back.
Quote from the article((A third at fault accident in any five year period should result in permanent revocation of driving privileges for at least five years.))
Phil replies(A third speeding violation should yield the same results)
Quote from the article((Some people should just take the bus.))
Phil replies(I agree anyone who habitually breaks any traffic law should have to use the bus. This includes habitual speeders, redlight runners, stop sign runners and DUIs. Imagine we could do away with speed enforcement, redlight cameras and the use of the breathalyzer all by making these law breakers take the bus.)
Quote from the article((But it’ll never happen because of the money and power derived from the current system — and because this country is afflicted with an entitlement mentality and poisoned by the notion that everyone’s “equal.”))
Phil replies(I agree that the country is afflicted with an entitlement mentality. Just take this author for example he feels he is entitled to drive above the speed limit without suffering retribution but would impose severe retribution for other drivers who apparently annoy him. This author goes as far as to condemn the Constitution of the US and the equality of Americans under the law. What’s next buddy are we going to decide based upon skin color or religion who can use the highways and who can’t?)
FrankieJ, I agree. Though, to be clear, vehicular cycling at its foundation means that bicyclist should behave like vehicles co-using the roadway lanes. This has been proven to increase the predictability perception of bicyclists in the eyes of motorists resulting in improved safety. It also involves the bicyclists’ taking the lane. (And invokes the wrath of some motorists who dislike slower vehicles.)
One subtle thing: There are sensible improvements possible in both infrastructure and the (motor)vehicle code which both suffer from a motorists bias. Traffic rules written with virtual ignorance of the physics of bicycling. One size fits all rules equally applied to motorists and bicyclist don’t always make total sense. And, I point to Idaho Vehicle code 49-720 as wise example of good sense.
One thing I would like to see happen would be to require new driver’s ed students to take and pass a class teaching the concept of Vehicular Cycling. What would be an even better idea would be having cyclists who break the law get ticketed and have a Vehicular Cycling class as a way of having that ticket canceled.
And just in case I haven’t been clear. I argue that bicyclists should follow the law.
I also argue that the laws (and road infrastructure) should be designed from the perspective of all; pedestrians, bicyclist and motorists.
For instance, much of the grief comes from the fact that the lanes on typical roads are substandard width, not designed to accommodate both bicycles and motor vehicles. Yet the bicyclists get blamed for the roads being too narrow to safely use without taking the full lane, it is the highway planners at fault.
While the law says bicyclists and motorists have equal rights, the planners favored motorists and ignored bicyclists.
A little known fact of history: The original vehicle code that started the process that grew into the state vehicle code system that makes motoring possible was “The New York Law 1887, Chapter 704: ‘An Act in Relation to the Use of Bicycles and Tricyles’”.
Similar for the political lobby movement that lead to the creation of the paved roads system in America, it was originally driven by the The League of American Wheelmen in the 1880’s (now called the League of American Bicyclists). The horseless carriages came a decade later and got started making use of the paved bicycle roads.
Motorists actually have bicyclists to thank for the start of their movement.
@Bruce – Agreed. Nice to see we can come to a reasonable conclusion here! First time ever for me!
I agree with any bikers that MANY drivers (I’d like to think I am not one of them) simply don’t pay enough attention, and are certainly idiots on the road. Fact is, I fear for an accident whether I’m in my car OR on my motorcycle… because most drivers really aren’t paying enough attention to DRIVING.
The problem is that it’s easier to blame the minority (bikers) than the majority who is just being ignorant. That needs to change.
I was thrilled to hear, the other day, that a person who stopped on the onramp of a highway was finally blamed for causing the accident, even though they were rear-ended. We can only hope that continued change in this more intelligent direction will continue, for everyone’s benefit. I feel that the article here is trying to imply this very line of thought, and for that I agree with what is stated in the article. There are always exceptions, and I think the biker-accident (or any death, for that matter) is one of them. But as in my rear-ended onramp-stopper example, I think the statement in the article applies 100%.
@Randy – Stop being a troll. Try understanding what is being said here on the site before blabbering on about how it’s all about breaking laws.
Hubcap Very funny. You talk about most cyclist not following the law of the roads. That is pretty much what this site is all about except for auto drivers not following the laws. Since when has this site ever been promoting following any laws? The complete oposite is what this site is all about.
@hubcap
It wasn’t just me. Several people here say they don’t feel safe bicycling on roads because the risk that motorists will kill them. Heck, you just threatened to kill my “pretentious spandex-clad ass” if I get in your way. Fact: About one bicyclist is killed by an inattentive motorist every day.
The article advocates for speeding. I mentioned that speeding makes the roads a death trap for cyclists, that is on topic.
Bruce Hallman:
Since YOU were the one who started this whole cyclists as victims thing–completely out of context–it’s pretty clear you are the one with the axe to grind.
(I just re-re-read the article and there is absolutely no mention whatsoever of anything having to do with bicycles, bicycle riders, or not driving into them.)
@hubcap
I am both a motorist and a biker. You hate me one day, and not the next. Your co-workers, neighbors, church parishioners, family members also are bicyclists at times too. How do you keep all your hate straighten out?
I really resent this whole implication that anyone in a car is just itching to pop a cyclist.
This thread typifies the attitude of riders who seem to think they have some rights to the road afforded no other.
A bike rider falls into some netherworld of part pedestrian and part vehicle which means no rules.
Cyclists ride on the sidewalk–or on the road–whichever place they feel they have more right to at any given time. They don’t stop for signals or signs and they will literally taunt drivers by deliberately impeding traffic.
In one instance, a cyclist kicked the side of my car and flipped me off while I waited at stop light that he rode right through.
Tell you what bikers, you keep your pretentious spandex-clad ass from in front of my car and I won’t drive over it. Deal?
It is agreed then, bicyclists should bicycle as fast as they reasonable can, and they should pull over when safe to let faster traffic pass.
This is not disputed by anyone I know, including the judge in Trotwood v. Selz. In that case, the bicyclist got ticketed for simply being *on* the road even while pedaling as fast as he could.
It really is an issue of civil rights. Do bicyclists have a right to use the roads shared with motorists? Far too many motorists drive inattentively, and bicyclists rightly fear for their lives. The subject of this article is why motorists should be allowed to speed, and speeding motorists intimidate bicyclists from their Constitutionally protected right to use the road.
What other Constitutionally protected rights are we willing to brush aside like this?
@Bruce
I understand the stance presented by that lawyer, and maybe that case is how they decided the situation that one time. But a single case does not constitute a blanket decision. As I mentioned, there were other cases that went the other way, too.
In the end, all I ask of ANY vehicle is to go at a reasonable rate of speed, and if you cannot do that for whatever reason, then to move aside and let faster traffic by (when it’s safe to do so). This is the generic rule of the national law, and it’s there for a reason: to promote traffic flow, as noted by my previous link from the biking site. There are cases there that support this direction, and it does make sense.
Fact is, you can regulate and nitpick on laws all day long, and still have problems enforcing them, or issues with specific situations. All I’m asking is that people respect others on the road… everyone blames speeders as the bane of the roads, but the people going slow are often equally to blame. We all share the road… so if you are the only slow vehicle on the road, then you are the one causing the problem – whether you’re on a bike or car or whatever.
Remember, slower does not necessarily mean safer.
@Todd
No doubt you want to avoid bicycling on roads shared with automobiles, considering that most motorists drive so inattentively that your life is at risk. Most people feel the same.
@Jeff & “Me”
Why mention that bicyclists that break the law need to stay off the road while not saying the same for motorists?
The truth is that speeding and inattentive motorists kill cyclists every day. That is much more harm than a bicyclist causes when they roll though a stop sign.
I have counted the speed of the cars on my local boulevard, where I bicycle. As the cars pass by the “Your speed is” radar trailer about 2/3rds of the motorists are speeding, breaking the law. And worse, selfishly and recklessly making the road unsafe for bicyclists (ask Todd who won’t even risk bicycling on roads shared with motorists).
Regarding freeways, studies have shown that most of the garages in this country have one (or more) bicycle gathering dust. In rough numbers you can say that our country has as many bicycles as automobiles. Yet we have spent trillions $ to build the freeways and 0.001% of that amount to build the bike lanes that Todd is asking for.
Don’t get me wrong, I am a motorists too. I just see the blunt truth here, which is that too many motorists neglect to realize that they risk killing bicyclists when speeding. And in the process, they intimidate and deny bicyclists their right to use the road by making roads unsafe.
Untill more bike lanes are made I am not rideing my bike on the road except for bike routes, trails, and mountaining.
P.S. Sorry for the grammer mistakes I type to fast.
In most states, bicyclists are required to obey all traffic signs such as stop signs and stop lights.
In 43-45 states in the US bicycles are NOT allowed ever on high interstate & US route freeways , high speed highways & freeways . So this discussion has nothing to do with posting high speed routes at the real limit . No bicycles are allowed on these higher speed routes so this discussion is mute . Only an idiot would even try to ride a bicycle on one of these high speed routes with traffic safely screaming by @ ~75-80 mph . Can you say knocked on your a$$ by the wind trailing behind a car as it screams . LOL
Bicycles are slow moving vehicles and need to have lanes that are set aside just for them or routes that are set for them with well marked out rules of road . Bicycles are fine for riding within cities but on rural high speed roads they need to obey the rules and stay off of them .
5-10 mph belong posted limits is fine on a bike around town . But 50-60 mph below the average speed on rural freeway , you must have a death wish and I don’t want to be the one that has your death on my conscious .
Besides 90-95 % of all US freeways , interstates & rural highways built to high speed freeway spec are marked ;
” No Bicycles Allowed ” .
@Schwinn
I recommend the book _Bicycling and the Law_ by Bob Mionske. ISBN 1-931382-99-9
In it Mionske describes the legal precedence about slow moving vehicle laws and bicyclists. The key case is Trotwood v. Selz, 746 N.E. 2nd 235 (Ohio Ct. App. 2000), with the essence being:
“…a bicyclist is not in violation of the (slow vehicle) ordinance when he is traveling as fast as he reasonable can.”
You ask: Is there any other solution but for the bicyclist to get out of the way? Yes, the obvious: Wait a moment or two until it is safe to pass.
The bigger issue I think is more cultural.
The vast majority of potential bicyclists are intimidated from their Constitutionally protected right to use the public roads due to fear of being killed by impatient, inattentive and speeding motorists.
Sorry to anyone who doesn’t want to participate in the bike discussion, but I think it’s important to continue the productive discussion happening, regardless of the original topic of the message.
Still, as it pertains to this article, as Bruce pointed out, he doesn’t agree with the 3-strikes rule against the driver, if a biker is involved. I would agree, since this is a far more dangerous situation than a car-car collision. However, I believe that the law should already take this into account, as it would be considered manslaughter, wouldn’t it? In that case, maybe people who commit any form of vehicular manslaughter should immediately be subjected to proper training and checkups? I’m all for that tack on this side of the matter.
As for the continuing bike conversation: (Bruce, I am enjoying the intelligent conversation – I hope you are too.)
As noted by law, bikes are considered vehicles on the road. For this reason, they are subject to the same rules as cars. In fact, this webpage http://www.cvcbike.org/club/bikelaw.htm#_A._Roads_Without talks specifically about the law in this regard, and I would like to reference a few key items. Note that I will ignore the CA specific items, since they are state-specific (odd that CA requires left turns from the LEFT side of the road, while the UVC says it should be from the right side… but that’s a different story)
Still, getting back to your response, Bruce, I knwo that bikers are naturally slower on the roads. However, even cars are required to “get out of the way” if they are going slower. So, shouldn’t bikers have to adhere to this rule too? (I can’t find a good link to chapter 10 of the UVC, which is referenced in the bike-specific sections, but I imagine the text is in there.) Still, as in the page referenced above, we see a discussion about 11-301(b), which the page calls the “slow vehicle rule”:
“The slow vehicle rule primarily serves to facilitate traffic flow, not to promote safety. Its purpose is to require the operator of the slower vehicle to keep to the right in order to allow faster vehicles unobstructed passage.[46] It is logical to conclude that the slow bicycle rule also serves primarily to facilitate traffic flow, not safety. Although casual bicyclists greatly fear overtaking accidents, such accidents are not a major cause of bike-car collisions.”
Looking at the footnote [46] we see that this is established in case-law. Don’t get me wrong, the biker needs to be the one to yield passage (when it is safe to do so) and the faster driver cannot “take” the right of way (such is the basic foundation of our driving rules)… however, the point is that it is intent (according to the judges interpretations) is that the section’s text (from the footnote) “Its purpose is to require the operator of the more slowly moving vehicle to keep to the right in order to allow the more swiftly moving vehicle unobstructed passage.”
So, it’s not just my interpretation, but that of the judge/case/lawyer, as well as this website (which is, incidentally, a biker’s website.)
Additionally, http://bikelaws.org/ (which appears to be pro-bikers as well) has a set of “Model Laws” that they would like to see enacted. Within their PDF (http://bikelaws.org/laws/UVC-model-bike.pdf) they also suggest for an update to 11-301 to state:
“The changes suggested below enhance safety and clarity.
(b) Upon all roadways any vehicle proceeding at less than the normal and lawful speed of traffic at the time and place and under the conditions then existing shall be driven in the right-hand lane then available for traffic, or far enough to the right to allow overtaking and passing by faster vehicles if such passing is safe and reasonable, except under any of the situations listed below.
1. When overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction.
2. When preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway.
3. When the operator must necessarily drive in a lane other than the right-hand lane to continue on such operator’s intended route.
The intent of this subsection is to facilitate the overtaking of slowly moving vehicles by faster vehicles, and shall not require the drivers of such slowly moving vehicles to risk their own safety in order to facilitate overtaking.”
Once again, I agree with this stance.
I realize you say that the faster vehicle is legally required to yield to the slower vehicle (after all, if he didn’t he would hit the slower vehicle). However, the rules already state that the slower vehicle should not impede the flow of traffic.
You’re right, the law does not state that the slower vehicle “must get out of the way”… but it does state they simply cannot impede the flow of traffic, which implies that they must correct the infraction. To me, this means they can speed up, or get out of the way… is there any other solution? (http://definitions.uslegal.com/i/impeding-traffic/ – unless TEMPORARILY unable to do so.)
In the end, it’s about NOT impeding the flow of traffic – by ANYONE, whether it’s a car, bike, pedestrian, etc. Cars and bikes must share the road… and sharing means yielding to other vehicles (cars and bikes) should the situation warrant it. In that sense, slower vehicles should always try to yield (when it’s safe, of course).
I look forward to your comments.
I agree, the topic of the article is how to determine unsafe automobile drivers. On most of the roads in the country, (with the exception of freeways and toll bridges) bicycles share the road with automobiles. The article suggests eliminating speed limits and substituting a “three accident” rule. Those three accidents could be bicyclist fatalities (bicyclists are killed daily by motorists). Motorists speeding on roads shared with bicyclists is obviously not safe driving.
POEPLE POEPLE!!! This article is about how to identify unsafe drivers not on bikes. We all got a little off the subject but really I don’t care so talk about bikes if you want people. This is just my input.
I’ve read the article three times , what do bicycles have to do with this ?? Most states don’t allow bicycles on high speed routes , freeways & and similar .
We have a national freeway systems that is built to a standard that can & does safely handle speeds in today’s cars of 70-85 mph in all 50 states with no regard to posted maximum . That is with no regard to the speed embargo’s that are in place in all 50 states well below what is the 85th percentile average freeway speed , rural or otherwise .
If posted limits in the US are ever going receive any respect this must be acknowledged . Acknowledged by posting them as such , at the real 85th percentile speeds .
I just spent a week driving aroud southern CA . I drove ~1,200 miles in the LA CA area with 65 posted on most with 70 posted on the other ones .
These under posted speed limits are 1,000,000 % ignored by all !!!!!!!!!!! cops included . Traffic flys along @ 70-80+ mph all day long without issue 95 % of the time . And this is all while there are at least 10-14 lanes on most of these high speed freeways filled with cars and trucks .
And while crossing the deserts & high mountains in the west 80-85 mph is the average flow speed . We really need limits to reflect this fact if we ever expect them to be obeyed .
In my experience driving in the western & southern US the higher speeds that are accepted and allowed lead directly to better drivers .
Drivers that can safely drive in the higher speed ranges lead to the filling these roads with much better trained drivers . Many times better drivers than from the states that treat higher speeds as a problem to be stamped out by ridiculously low under posted limits and over burdensome penalties for doing nothing unsafe .
The doing nothing unsafe is the fact that most drivers in all 50 states drive at the speed they feel comfortable at . Not 1 mph faster or slower with no regard to the posted limit .
@Schwinn,
While I can appreciate your desire about minimum speed, I ask you to check the law about what you describe as “in the way of (legally) faster traffic.”
Considering that bicyclists are “traffic” and the U.V.C. Article 8 Section 11-801 states: “No person shall drive a vehicle at a speed greater than is reasonable…safe and appropriate.”
I could go into the court cases, such as People v. Banat 100P. 2d 374 (Cal. Super. 1940) which held that: “reasonable” refers “to the speed that a vehicle is driven”. Clearly, a bicycle cannot reasonable be expected to be driven faster than a bicycle can physically be pedaled.
In short, the faster vehicle is legally required to yield to the slower vehicle, not the other way around.
Of course, the slower vehicle must comply with the slow vehicle laws of the state, in California it is CVC 21654 which only says you must stay in the right hand lane. And that when the bicyclist impedes “five or more vehicles… (the slow vehicle) shall turn off the roadway at the nearest place designated as a turnout by signs erected by the authority having jurisdiction over the highway”.
The law doesn’t say that the bicyclist must “get out of the way” of faster traffic as you seem to hope. That said, most cyclists including myself pull out and let faster vehicles pass when it is safe.
Though also, I have learned through hard personal experience that it is vastly safer to bicycle taking a full lane when the lane is of substandard width. Otherwise, too many motorists attempt squeeze by, putting my life at risk.
Bruce Hallman I am afraid what Schwinn said is pretty much the response you will get from this site. It is all about freedom and nothing about safety or the rights of other people. In other words it is what he said, get the hell out of the way is what you will typically hear from this site.
I have no problem with bicycles on roadways. I have a problem with ANY slow vehicle on a faster roadway. As much as we, as a society, complain about speeders, the same should be said about slow-drivers. Both extremes are hazards on the roads. The safest drivers (riders, etc) are those who go at comparable speed to traffic flow.
With that in mind, bikers on the road in front of my house (speed limit 25-40, depending on section) have every right to be within the traffic flow, if they are going the same speed (ie, near the speed limit). However, if someone is very much slower, then I don’t care if they are on a bike, car, roller skates, moped, etc… they should get out of the way. Bikers TEND to be the slowest on the roads, and that’s probably where people tend to be anti-bikes… Remember, it’s not about them being on bikes… it’s about them being slow and in the way of (legally) faster traffic..
To Schwinn
I find your open mindedness refreshing, thanks. Point of fact: All vehicles have an equal legal right to use the road, motorized and foot powered. Another regrettable fact: The reckless speed of the majority of motorists on most roads in the country create a road hazard that is unacceptable to most potential bicyclists.
I am fully aware that on motorists.org motorists predominate. (Personally, I am both a motorist and a bicyclist.)
Just imagine, if in an alternate universe, the actions of bicyclists made the majority of roads death traps for motorists. Would motorists complain that their legally given right to the road was being infringed? It is a civil right issue really. One group of people is being denied a legal right (and killed daily), and why? In order to get somewhere a minute or two earlier?
Interestingly, there are few places in the world where cars and bicycles actually do share the roads more or less peacefully. The Netherlands, parts of Seattle, Portland and San Francisco etc.. What they all have in common is that on shared roads the vehicle behind grants a safe distance and right of way to the vehicle in front (foot powered or motor powered).
@Bruce Hallman
You are correct. I misinterpreted the last exemption, and as it is written, it is true that the biker does not have to keep-right, implying that they can use the entire lane if the lane is of “substandard width”. Thanks for pointing this out. (Hey, at least I can admit when I’m wrong!)
I will say that I don’t agree with this law for two reasons. One, because it allows the biker to take up the entire lane. I can see why it can’t be worded any other way, since allowing the car to pass would require that the car crosses the median (since it’s not wide enough for the car + bike) and that is certainly not something you want to allow in a law!
The other reason I don’t agree with it is because it’s too difficult to judge (while driving/riding) whether the lane is of “substandard width” or not. I mean, are we supposed to go out and measure the width of a road we’re on? I certainly don’t have a very good “eyesight measuring” skill, so I really couldn’t tell you if the road in front of my house is 14′ wide or not. There must be a better way to do this… and hence I don’t like the law as it is worded today.
But, again, you are correct, a “substandard width” road does not require the rider to keep right. Still, I think the rider should keep right, and let the faster vehicle behind them pass… as a common courtesy. I mean, I see people pull off the road to the right when they are really going slow in a car… there’s no reason a biker couldn’t do the same – law or not.
@Hubcap
Quite true… not sure why we took this in a totally different direction in the first place! On topic, I agree with the idea. I mean, in most states, you give tickets to people and then they can take a “defensive driving” course to help eliminate some of those points. This is a good thing. Therefore, if there is an accident… SOMEONE is to blame for it, and so someone should be reeducated on the rules… or they should just be paying more attention. Since you can’t “teach” people to pay more attention on the road, I suppose a “defensive driving” course is a good thing anyway.
Fact is, ANY improved driver training would be a good thing. Our current training methods to get a license are horribly inadequate. Train for better drivers to AVOID having accidents – that’s a REAL way to improve safety.
To answer Bruce again on this topic, I don’t think that speeding is the bane of our existance that it’s made out to be. As your article showed, people “speed” because speed limits are set artifically low. So, we have to simply throw out the posted limit, since it’s relatively meaningless. However, I do agree that in the vicinity of the biker, the “reasonable speed” is effectively reduced, so the car should pass slowly, and not at a ridiculous speed. Unfortunately, that story doesn’t tell us how fast the SUV passed this biker, so we don’t know if it was really “too fast” or what. Surely, the fact that the SUV passed so closely is a plain violation by the SUV driver, not the biker.
Responding to Hubcap:
You joke, I think. No one here is advocating for the Critical Mass law breakers.
But your flippant “drivers who crash a lot” statement diminishes the fact that one bicyclist is killed every day at the fault of an inattentive (and usually speeding) motorist.
The article advocates for tolerating speeding and substituting a ‘three accident’ rule. As if three accidents, (potentially killing bicyclists), is not a big deal.
Wow this thread went far afield! How did a look at possibly de-licensing drivers who crash a lot turn into a Critical Mass advocacy group?
In response to ”
By Bruce Hallman on Oct 15, 2008
Responding to Randall: Your advice to bicyclist to avoid using roads because they should “know the danger” is misplaced. Massachusetts Code Chapter 85, Section 11B says “bicyclists…shall have the right to use all public ways in the Commonwealth “. It is some motorists illegal failure to yield the road to bicyclists who are legally using the roads that causes the danger. You are blaming the victim. If you don’t like bicyclist legally sharing the road change the law. Don’t threaten to kill them and then blame them for not yielding to danger of your intimidation.
”
You may be right that the bicyclist has the legal right of way but I have a motorcycle and do not drive it on many roads because of safety reasons and that is doing the same speed as the motorists. You have not been on this site enough to read the posts of many on here that reflect a number of people on our roadways. It is all about speed and passing others that are only going 10 mph over the limit on two lane roads etc. I stick to driving a car to work just because of safety not that I want to.
Bruce Hallman I read the article you had a link to. I would have to agree with the policemen with the little information that I have. Since they did not give the man a ticket I think they can say anything they want to. I believe the man may have been wrong even if he was legal. If in fact there was paved road on the right side of the white line then it is very possible that it was a biking lane or meant for bikers use. Even if a biker is going the speed limit he should be off the main road if possible for his and the motorist safety because of limited visibility of him if nothing else. Maybe the policemen were just trying to convince the man to ride in the biking lane.
Responding to Schwinn.
I agree in theory that riding to the right, in so much as is practicable, is the law.
But your truncated quote of the law, omits the key phrase “…except under any of the following situations…” because the exceptions are giant.
I will skip most of your amateur legal interpretation because there is so much superior expert opinion available on this subject.
For instance, see this legal article (and many others similar):
http://www.velonews.com/article/72849
“If the lane is of substandard width, you are not required to ride to the right, period. ”
A ’substandard width’ is any lane narrower than about 14 feet. Typical road lanes are 11 foot wide road lanes and are always substandard.
Bicyclists are indeed entitled to take the entire lane in many common circumstances.
@Bruce Hallman:
Actually, I’m not wrong, as the section you reference clearly states, and I quote:
“Any person operating a bicycle or a moped upon a roadway at less than the normal speed of traffic at the time and place and under the conditions then existing shall ride as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway”
What’s more, you cannot line up side by side either, as shown in 11-1206:
“Persons riding bicycles upon a roadway shall not ride more than two abreast except on paths or parts of roadways set aside for the exclusive use of bicycles. Persons riding two abreast shall not impede the normal and reasonable movement of traffic and, on a laned roadway, shall ride within a single lane.”
Therefore if a car travels on a roadway, the bicycle has to remain to the right, and never ride 2-abreast.
Yes, there are exceptions, as you noted, but these are not normal rules of the road. If the bicycle has to avoid a road hazard, then they certainly can come into the main part of the lane, but there is an expectation that they won’t just jump across without looking. You can’t just change lanes in a car without looking, so what makes you think it’s ok for a biker to do the same?
As for bikers turning left, they don’t need to be in the middle of the road either, as noted by section 11-1208(b):
“A person riding a bicycle or a moped intending to turn left shall approach the turn as close as practicable to the right curb or edge of the roadway. After proceeding across the intersecting roadway to the far corner of the curb or intersection of the roadway edges, the bicyclist or moped driver shall stop, as much as practicable out of the way of traffic. After stopping the bicyclist or moped driver shall yield to any traffic proceeding in either direction along the roadway the bicyclist had been using. After yielding, and complying with any official traffic control device or police officer regulating traffic on the highway along which he or she intends to proceed, the bicyclist or moped driver may proceed in the new direction.”
In other words, the biker moves to the RIGHT of the road, “out of the way of traffic”, then SIGNALS their intent to turn (part of ANY vehicle’s rule – bike or otherwise), then YIELD TO ANY TRAFFIC PROCEEDING IN EITHER DIRECTION before making the turn. All of these actions are intended to keep the biker out of the car-lane in the road, and make it safe for the biker to turn.
So, as long as the biker follows the normal rules of the road (ie, don’t cut people off) and stay to the right then there is no problem. You have to notice that bikers don’t have the right of way on the road… too many bikers think they naturally have the right of way – they don’t… that’s why even when turning left they are to YIELD to traffic in EITHER direction.
Note that NOWHERE does it state the biker is “entitled to occupy an entire lane on highways”.
In your second post, you quote MA law, but neglect to read further:
“Operators of bicycles shall be subject to the following regulations:
(1) The operator shall ride single file on any way except when passing.”
I don’t see any mention of the “keep right” issue, so I can only assume that the federal rule applies.
Again, keep in mind, even in MA, nowhere does it say that the biker is allowed full reign of the road or lane…
Again, I’m not saying that speeding is good, but when the speed limit is set artificially low, then it’s not speeding (by definition of engineering studies). That being said, cars should always practice caution around pedestrians or bikers, but that doesn’t mean both can just ignore their own rules of travel either. They need to practice their own laws as well.
@Randall:
It may not be illegal in MD to travel in the left lane, but it is in many states: http://www.mit.edu/~jfc/right.html
“Most states follow the Uniform Vehicle Code and require drivers to keep right if they are going slower than the normal speed of traffic regardless of the speed limit.”
Bottom line is, it’s safer FOR EVERYONE for slower drivers to keep right.
Well then I guess all bicyclists should go slower than a horse drawn cart because it might spook the horses (Amish)
Oh wait no horses, you should still only go five mph.
Same logic you are using here.
No one wants to hit a bicyclist. This isn’t Death Race 2000. (although if you’ve ever seen the dumb cabbies & the dumb bike messengers in Chicago, you might disagree ;) )
George, I am not sure I understand your question. In the context of ’safe’ or ‘unsafe’ speed for a motorist, the only safe speed is one which is slow enough to see (the sometimes difficult to see) bicyclist that might be legally using a road.
Which one is it Bruce, a bicyclist actually using the road, or a bicyclist that might be using the road?
Replying to Todd: Most (if not all) states already have laws governing slow moving vehicles. In California, the faster vehicles are required to slow down and wait until it is safe to pass. The slow moving vehicle has a right to travel, but is required to keep as right as is safe. And if five vehicles are impeded, the slow vehicle is required to pull over and let the faster vehicles pass at the first safe opportunity. That is the law. There is no requirement that a slow moving vehicle has to go faster than they can achieve. Slow bicyclists have a full right to use roads. Motorists have no right to go faster than is safe on a road shared with bicyclists.
To Bruce Hallman
Yes (I don’t know if this goes for all U.S. states) bicyclists do have the right to use the road however like I said before the person on the bike should be healthy enough so that they can keep a good speed. The reason why I am saying that bicyclists need to be healthy is because we can’t have them moving so slow or stoping in the middle of the road because they are out of energy. That would cause a traffic back up. Yes motorists should slow down when a bike is in their lane and if possible move to the left and pass the bike safely. The bottom line is that bicyclists and motorists need to work together meaning that motorists slow down and pass the bike on the left safely like I said before and as for the bicyclists they need to keep a good speed so they don’t back up traffic.
As for the bicyclists that can only move at speeds for 8 mph then those ones should ride or be allowed to ride on the side walk since they don’t really put people on the sidewalk at risk.
I really hope more bike lanes are made. If so that would be great!!!
Responding to Todd: While I would like more bike lanes, I am not holding my breath while I wait. In the mean time, the law is very clear. Bicycles have a full right to use the public roads. If you don’t like that, change the law. In the mean time, “safe drivers” respect the law and drive slow enough to not risk hitting bicyclist using the road. Speeding when bicyclists might be on the road (which is always) is unsafe.
By the way, there is powerful legal precedence that because drivers licenses are revocable (due to age/health/DUI status, etc.) and because interstate travel is protected by the US Constitution that an alternative form of locomotion (like bicycles and horses) is actually a Constitutionally protected right. Ironically bicycling is Constitutionally protected and motoring is not. Logically it is fair to claim that bicyclists (even those that can only travel slowly) have a greater non-revocable right to the road which motorists do not share because drivers licenses are revocable.
I would like people in charge of bycycle lanes to make the smaller lanes bigger because I got hit by a car because the lane was too small.
How about putting more bike lanes on the road, have all bikes come with a speedo, make sure that the person useing the bike is healthy enough to keep moving above 20-25mph, a law which states that the people on bikes can go no slower than 20-25 mph depending on the type of road and speed limit for vehicles, and 20 mph and below for small back roads. That should help to keep the speeds of bikes and vehicles near to the same which will help safety. Last educate motorists and bicyclist so that they learn to watch out for each other and be accomadating to one another. Thats just my idea so you people reading this posts can agree or disagree with me if you want.
As for the Freeways “Keep Right Expect to Pass” should become the law in which is strictly enforce since it will help faster and slower traffic to share the road in a safe manner however this does not mean for people to drive to slow or to fast for conditions. There is a quote from the book called “American Autobahn” which says “Only a fool passes a string of vehicles at 100 mph when the group is flowing along at 60, because it is impossible to stop in time” This is also true for this “Keep Right Except to Pass” law.
Responding to Randall: Your advice to bicyclist to avoid using roads because they should “know the danger” is misplaced. Massachusetts Code Chapter 85, Section 11B says “bicyclists…shall have the right to use all public ways in the Commonwealth “. It is some motorists illegal failure to yield the road to bicyclists who are legally using the roads that causes the danger. You are blaming the victim. If you don’t like bicyclist legally sharing the road change the law. Don’t threaten to kill them and then blame them for not yielding to danger of your intimidation.
In MD it’s not illegal for someone doing the sped limit to sit in the left lane. You can sit there all day and the cop can’t do anything. So if you ever notice an out of state Marylander driving you may notice that he sits in the left lane, a lot. Or if when you visit MD everyoe is in the left lane. Good luck getting that guy in front of you to get over. We end up passing on the right side quite a bit because of these drivers which may or may not be illegal in MD, not sure. But I’m sure this causes a lot of traffic congestion and accidents.
The speeding laws are quite lenient compared to some states around us like VA, PA, or DE. 1-9 over is 1 point. 10 to 29 over is 2 points and 30 and over is 5 points. Then on 65 mph roads its 1-19 over is 2 points and 20 and over is 5 points. So basically you can go 89mph on a 60 mph road and get 2 points. While when you get on a 65 mph road you get 5 points.
As for the bicyclists, stay on back roads. It’s dangerous to ride a bicycle on the road and bicyclists should know this and if they don’t there causing a danger by not recognizing how dangerous it truly is.
Responding to Schwinn: Wrong. Check the law; Uniform Vehicle Code section 11-1205 and similar State Codes. In virtually all states bicyclists are entitled to occupy an entire lane on highways. (Freeways and toll bridges are limited exceptions.) The “ride to the right rule” has many exceptions allowing the bicyclist to take a full lane to avoid debris, to pass other cyclists, and for making left turns, etc.. There is no way a speeding motorist can observe the broken glass debris blocking the shoulder path, or know when a bicyclist might be preparing for a left turn. Therefore speeding on highways and roads is always an indication of a motorist not driving preemptively to avoid bicyclist that might be legally using a road lane.
Your ’speed differential’ proposal is actually the present law. As speed limits are not the upper limit and contain the clause that the ’safe speed’ for current conditions is the actual speed limit. Current conditions include preemptively anticipating a bicyclist (passing, left turning, or avoiding shoulder debris) in a roadway lane.
I believe that the reason why agencies are so reluctant to revoke someone’s license, is in part because public transportation in most of the united states is dismal at best. In many cases, revoking driving privileges will eliminate a person’s ability to make a living.
Should public transportation be developed on par with other developed nations, I think pulling someone’s license would be much easier.
I believe the article was directed more towards removing the current obsession with “speeding” as an accident prone activity. That being said, most “speeding” happens on highways, where bicycles are not allowed, so your point is moot.
Still, even in slower traffic areas, where bicycles are allowed, you are dealing with basic rules of the road. If these are followed, then even the bikers are quite safe. The road in front of my house is listed at 35mph, and bikers travel it all the time. Most traffic drives at 40-45mph, and there is no danger to the bikers that follow the rules. Of course, there are always idiots who don’t stay to the right, or travel side-by-side in pairs… neither of these is a fault of the car-driver.
In any case, if the speed limits are set reasonably (based on the road and traffic study rules) your point is moot. Bicycles will naturally avoid faster roads, because of the risk (as they should) and the majority of people (ie, car-drivers) get to travel more efficiently.
Still, I have often considered the following possibility: What if everyone drove the same speed? The problem (again, on highways) is that people don’t drive the same speed – some are slow, and some are faster. It is this speed difference that causes accidents… after all, if everyone drove the exact same speed, then we would have fewer accidents (except for vehicle failure, or side-swiping; the latter is a fault of the driver, not the speed). So, in that situation, the speed is relatively irrelevant… proving again, that speed, alone, is the not the problem.
So, maybe we should start enforcing speed-differentials instead? I know, it’s not easy to do this… but the point is, keep the slower people to the right (already an existing unenforced law), and make sure people accelerate to the speed of traffic BEFORE merging. People here in MA simply cannot get this last part right at all… they love to stop at the end of the onramp, and leave no space to accelerate. How about making THAT illegal, too, while we’re at it?
By law, virtually all public roadways are shared by all vehicles including bicycles. In no case are speeding motorists safe because faster speed reduces their ability to observe and their duty to avoid collision with slower (and hard to see) vehicles like bicycles that share that road.
Waiting for the *actual* accidental collision with a cyclist before we call speeding unsafe is flawed logic. Good drivers are preemptive.