Construction Zone Tickets: What They Don’t Want You To Know
February 11th, 2008 Posted in James Baxter, Traffic Tickets
By Jim Baxter, NMA President
Highway work zone accidents and fatalities have been a hot topic over the past decade. Like most hot topics dealing with highway safety issues the misinformation, distortions, and propaganda are dominant in the headlines.
For example, the political elite would have us believe that highway workers are the primary victims of callus, reckless, and impaired drivers who take their pleasure by careening amongst orange plastic barrels. You might find in a footnote that eight out of nine work zone fatalities are motorists and not workers.
Another even more remote footnote might mention that most of the highway workers that are injured or die in work zone accidents are the victims of direct work related accidents that do not involve passing cars and trucks.
However, not to be dissuaded by facts or reality, state legislators have pumped out numerous laws that increase traffic fines in work zones, assess more fines for harming highway workers, and promote enforcement campaigns aimed at applying these new penalties.
So what are the results of all this legislative flogging?
A recent University of Kansas Study that explored the causes of work zone accidents referenced a telling national statistic:
- In 1999 work zone fatalities totaled 872.
- By 2003 the number of work zone fatalities had increased 18 percent (1028 fatalities).
While it wouldn’t be fair to lay the blame for these deaths on the legislative disinformation campaigns and doubling and tripling of fines, it’s clear they haven’t improved the situation.
To the degree that this political hucksterism displaced and sidetracked programs and policies that could have reduced work zone accidents it IS partially responsible for the end result; more accidents, more injuries and more deaths.
Work zones can be managed to move traffic safely. Better signage, better lane management, better timing of active work projects, relevant speed regulation, and giving first priority to traffic movement during peak travel periods, such as holidays, are all constructive objectives.
These measures, and others, require the recognition that work zone safety is primarily about drivers, not highway workers, and in fact it is the highway project managers that should be held responsible for improving work zone safety.
Certainly, drivers need to exercise caution in construction zones, but they are not in control of the traffic environment, the project managers are. Ladling on more fines and penalties may work, as long as the recipients are the people responsible for managing construction and work zones.
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[...] I can deal with construction zones when they make sense. I don’t quite understand why they often close down a lane a mile or so before the actual work zone, however. I’m also confused by one work zone that shifts 3 lanes to one side or the other for a 3 or 4 mile stretch when the only construction taking place is replacing a bridge over I-96. Then there’s the construction zone that extended for a 3 mile stretch on US-127/I-496, but now the work remaining is the southbound ramp to I-96 east and a bridge over 127/496. The whole stretch is still posted Speed Limit 60, however. Are traffic fines still doubled if the work on that stretch is completed? [...]
I am 76 years old and the safest drivers my age were kids that were permitted to drive on wet grass and do spins and loops and controlled skids. On ice they were the safest drivers.
On I94 north of Tohma WI south bound before dinner each day a trooper drives south to Tohma with 3 to 4 miles of cars and trucks 3 foot apart. A giant accident looking for a place to happen…..
Ima Safedriver, kinda been there, done that. 15 or so years ago I was the prime instigator in getting a citizens police commission started in my town. Unfortunately the commission was established by outgoing council members and the newly elected one’s wouldn’t support us by not nominating replacement members when a member could no longer serve or quit. We lasted about six interesting months before we lost our quorum. One of our intentions was to provide a interface between the citizens and the police. I always thought that some of this ill feeling could be reduced by better communication between the two parties. I still believe that.
I’ve been a NMA member for many years. So on a couple occasions in the past I’ve had my name and address circulated around to state members, with only luke warm reception. If you can’t get members of your own organization, who’s supposed to be interested in this stuff, interested then who in hell can you get! I also managed to get a bill on traffic ticket quota’s introduced into the state house. The meager excuse they used to reject it, was obvious what happened. The Municipal League squished it like a bug. I’ve been told by several legislators that the Municipal League has been responsible for traffic reform failures in the past. So, I’ve come to appreciate them about as much as NHTSA. I believe nearly every state has a Municipal League which is a little known group in our state. They swing an enormous amount of weight in the state legislature. It should be no surprise that they spend a good part of their time interfacing with state and federal policy makers. If you mention Municipal League to the average citizen, they’ve never heard of them. This group runs a stealth operation to be sure. And then to top that off we have sections of the state that have their own local district councils. In the northeastern part of Oklahoma we have INCOG (Indian Nations Council of Governments). While it is not their sole function, again they also have a lobbying arm of their organization. I won’t mention the LEO organizations that also play a part. The vast majority of citizens don’t realize the number and sophistication of these groups. It’s only over time that I’ve learned about them. Most of the laws that allow the municipal coffers to grow with revenue were passed years if not decades ago. Municipalities have just learned how to exploit them better. As you well know, advances in technology has only worsened the problem for the driving public while improved the situation for municipalities.
Again James is quite correct when he states that the implementation of the 55 mph NMSL probably taught many municipalities the value of a aggressive traffic control program. Thanks Pres. Nixon….you crook. That’s particularly true of smaller municipalities. We know for a fact that there are small municipalities that exist economically solely on traffic citations, mostly speeding tickets. Further, in smaller, poorer, rural municipalities law enforcement may provide additional jobs which can have an impact on the unemployment rate. Some of these communities lie near major state and Interstate thoughfares. Many years ago they almost dried up and disappeared when they were bypassed by the Interstate system. Then they discovered they could reaching out and annex these “pots of gold”. Now the city coffers have never been in better shape. Even larger municipalities have discovered that revenue from traffic citations are a nice little addition to their budget. As you well know, although technology has made our vehicles safer it has equally played an increasing role in catching drivers, especially speeding. So, as I reiterate, at least in this state the wrong laws are being enforced for the wrong reasons. It’s undeniable.
How we have arrived at this juncture probably would be a good subject for a book. But the direction we’ve allowed government to take pertaining to traffic control violates some of the basic premises of honesty and integrity in government. We’ve gone to great lengths in this country to keep money out of our justice system. We’ve gone to great lengths in this county to keep conflicts of interest out of our justice system. We know historically that both these forces lead to corruption. While we completely and aggressively reject these forces under any other circumstance, we’ve allowed governments to embrace them. You could expect this in a third world county but in the good ‘ole USA? How we’ve allowed this to happen I believe is a perfect example of citizens (driving public) staying out of the process and we’re paying for it now….literally.
As for speed traps and talking to the LEO bosses, they’ve got a quota to meet. I doubt that a single citizen will change that. I used be on a first name basis with some of the council members in my town. In fact the mayor was booted out of office by a rogue group that managed to get elected. My neighbor and I run a guy from our addition for council member (he won). The former mayor was running to regain his council seat so we kinda ran the two together when we placed signs and did door to door campaigning. He and the city manager also got kicked out because this rogue group didn’t like him either. At that time both of them told several of us about police abuse in our town…..this coming straight from people in the know! Ya, I’ve dabbled and rubbed elbows with politicians a little. I’ve seen how police activity can get distorted by the zest for revenue and my town is not NEAR as bad as many others we have in this state as James has eluded to many times. I will say however that the police as well as the town has matured a lot in recent years due to a healthy dose of growth.
I few years ago I noted the local police running a speed trap on a pretty regular basis in this one hiding spot along a road not far from my residence. So I decide to see what was behind it. Give it a fair assessment and see if in fact there was really a basis for this aggressive enforcement. I contacted the county engineer who printed out the records from the DPS computer database, for the four mile section of road in question. Even I was surprised. The 60 or so records that I received, I believe something like only 3 accidents were attributed to actual speeding (moving beyond the posted speed limit). Most were intersection accidents, a few driving to fast for conditions and some for weather. This small percentage of accidents caused by actual speeding seems to hold true with more recent statistics from other states. Oh, and I’m sure we have no Community Traffic Safety Team.
I’ve looked at traffic control for the better part of 30 years. James claims closer to 50. I used to read police magazines at the local library. I have several piles of cut outs and excepts from all kinds of print media from over the years about traffic control. The Internet and use of files have made physical piles of paper obsolete. Some of us are NOT talking out the sides of our mouth as some claim. None of us may have it exactly right but collectively I believe we get damn close. Speaking of name calling; a guy who is passing himself as a former LEO, I direct you to; http://www.motorists.org/blog/speed-traps/the-worst-speed-trap-cities-in-the-united-states/ and a guy posting as Gail Minks on Feb 22, 2008. Just as a boxer starts grasping for punches when he starts losing the fight so it is that when a poster starts losing a debate they start calling names.
Oh yeah, AAA! We have a big AAA office in our city. The AAA employees are the biggest violators of the laws. They speed, the run stop signs, follow too close, etc. One day I stopped a big wig for 20 over in a 35! LOL! I told him that it was kind of odd that the nations advocate for safe driving was the biggest cause of crashes and traffic violations on this roadway. Well, a week later, people seemed to be driving a WHOLE lot better! LOL! I guess some e-mails went flying! LOL!! Funny story!
Well Joe, with all that’s been said, in the end I think I can agree with most it. I especially can agree on the point of education and knowledge of your government and what they are doing. Speak up! That’s what I say! I can tell you that if you have a problem with a “speed trap”, go talk to the bosses (Chief/Sheriff or whatever). Express your concerns over the “issue”. Bring up traffic crash numbers in that area and find out if the enforcement supports the cause. You might find out that there has been several crashes there or just the opposite.
I had a former motor partner that would do speed enforcement on a roadway that we had seen few if any crashes there. I mentioned that in casual conversation to my boss one day and we looked into the numbers. There weren’t too many reasons to devote as much time as he did there. So see, there are traffic cops on your side, you just didn’t know it.
I think my biggest issue is that, which obviously you agree with me on, there is no reasonable way we can do away with speed limits. Raise them, yeah, sh-tcan them, no way! As far as the education part goes, we do a lot for our community. The sheriff’s office has an aggressive driving program. They do speeches at the high schools and they even bring out a crashed car on a trailer to show the kids how “street racing” can really end. The car came from a family that lost their child in a stupid act. The kid was a good kid, he just a made a stupid kid mistake that ended in the loss of four innocent lives. As far as me, I do take them time to speak with people and I treat people the way I would want someone to treat my elderly parents. I don’t belittle people and I explain the reason for me doing my job. For the most part, people listen and understand, however some are just name calling a-sholes!
In fact just the other day, on the day that my supervisor was doing my yearly evaluation, I received a letter from a driver I stopped for a red light violation. The driver was totally impressed that I took the time to speak to him about the danger he placed himself in. You see, he stopped near the light but past the stop bar, well past the stop bar, and out into the big intersection. He was on the phone at the time and didn’t realize he was out so far that he was blocking another lane. I asked him what would have happened if another inattentive driver had happened through that same intersection just then. In the end he understood the reason for my efforts to reduce crashes, thereby reducing injuries and saving insurance rates.
Find out if your community has a Community Traffic Safety Team, if they do, then join, if they don’t, recommend that they start one, then join. All I ask, is that you don’t stereotype us. I think it’s always been odd that people who accuse the cops of stereotyping typically stereotype the cops. Go figure??
Again James is right on. Ima Safedriver, you must live on another planet. I could better tolerate your enforcement tolerances. I’m a reasonable person and you make some good points. You seem to be leaning ever so slightly in the right direction of reasonableness. That’s what I’m asking for. That is definitely NOT what we experience in these parts as James so eluded too. Your breathern around here have corrupted the image of law enforcement big time. They’ve made a mockery of traffic control. That’s why I believe the way I do. You need to keep in mind that we are experiencing what appears to be a completely different environment then you. Parts of my posts may not exactly apply to your situation.
Further, you may have me mixed up with someone else using the term Nazi or other similar terms for LEO’s. I try to limit my name calling of LEO’s because it’s not very constructive. In my case I like the word “resent” better then hate. I have been known to use the term Nazi towards NHTSA, MADD and a variety of similar agencies because it’s the strongest word I can think of without resorting to common four letter words, you know what I mean. I make no apologies for that. That’s exactly what they are. I watch them in front of congress giving their spin for tougher enforcement and more laws. They spin the data the way it suits them. I watch until I get nauseated. MADD isn’t any better. NHTSA feeds at the public trough so naturally they suggest this garbage to justify their existence. NHTSA is a government agency that we could certainly close. We have too many agencies and organizations that have nothing better to do then set around thinking up more ways to engage law enforcement and the driving public…with the drivers coming up on the usual short end. Primarily because of speed enforcement, we can’t even get the laws already on the books, that ACTUALLY affect the accident rate, enforced. It’s crazy. Sometimes I have to pinch myself to see if this is a fairytale but then the red flashing lights awaken me to reality.
Also your getting Mr. Young and I mixed up so I need to clarify. He suggests no speed limits, not me. I know what he speaks of and in theory I agree but I can’t see it under current circumstances. It’s too problematic. I’m sure he and I could handle it quite handily. I know many other mature drivers that could also handle the lack of speed limits. But from my perspective, we still have too many drivers out there for a whole variety of reasons that could not handle the absence of speed limits. In Germany where there are roads with no speed limits, I assure you they don’t get their drivers license out of a box of Post Toasties like around here. The German mentality of excellence is applied to driving as well. But I totally agree that drivers should focus on driving as conditions permit. I don’t want to speak for him but I believe that’s the jest of My. Youngs message. Unfortunately, the obsession with speed limits around here, drivers get the idea that as long as they stay within the speed limit, they can do anything they want without consequences. It’s counterintuitive to tell drivers you should drive according to conditions and the turn around and add….until you move beyond the velocity of those 2 numbers on a sign. A sign that some traffic engineer in his ivory tower catering to non pragmatic principles has set. Or worse, some speed limits are set by local municipal city councils, by a show of hands. I’ve seen it.
Hell, we don’t even have a decent drivers education program in this state of Oklahoma. My opinion is that for Mr. Youngs idea of no speed limits to bare fruit, we must train young drivers to drive properly, preferably professionally. It’s gotta be embedded in they’re malleable brain. It’ll probably takes a couple years to do this in High School if we are serious about traffic safety. All these young drivers have a life time of driving ahead of them. Ima Safedriver, you above all people, should realize the value of this. These young drivers will be your “clients” for many years to come, until you retire and beyond and then they become some other cops clients. Why wouldn’t you want them to have the best we can offer. But believe it or not, drivers training doesn’t seem to be supported, to any great extent, in this state by LEO’s. A few years ago the AAA had a bill introduced in the state legislature that would have boosted funding for drivers education. It saw little support from law enforcement. I’m still scratching my head on that one. Consequently, the bill which did get signed by the governor, was a mere shadow of it’s original self.
I work on a large maintenance base for a major air carrier. James you know. We have over 7,000 employed there. I obviously don’t know everybody but over the 25 years I’ve gotten to know many good, intelligent workers and leaders. Leaders and co-workers who I’ve looked up to because of their pristine creditably. Some with a uncanny ability for the practical. Union, non-union doesn’t make any difference. After working closely for years with these people, traffic control eventually enters a conversation. Probably 9 out of 10 of these people resent LEO’s, some worse then I, because of what they view as traffic control excesses….abuses.
We are defiantly not kids anymore. Many of us are now looking to retirement. James and I are in our early ’60s. I know a 80+ year old in near Stringtown, OK who has been a bulldog on speed traps. He’s a WWII vet, a former maritime mariner, truck driver. A guy with a wealth of worldly experience. He knows speed traps, he lives near several small towns with a BIG speed trap reputation as James so eluded too. So it beckons the question; why do all these people resent LEO’s in this state? One of my co-workers is a lifelong bachelor in mid ’50’s who is a avid conservative, wouldn’t miss a Russ Limbach show and watches Fox news shows. A guy who would NEVER normally break a law….but he does drive over the speed limit, according to conditions, as I do. Many of us are Vietnam era veterans. All these people are mature, intelligent (we have to be for our jobs) individuals. Can you please tell me why nearly ALL these good people resent traffic enforcement? I have a sense that not all these good people can be wrong. I know the next question your going to ask? I’ve asked it myself many times. Why aren’t these good people out there trying to get the laws changed.
A book could probably be written about this but, to some extent, I believe it’s the old adage “you can’t fight city hall”. I also believe it’s part of a bigger problem which seems to be getting worse. Citizens have decided to put their government on autopilot and let it run on it’s own accord without any guidance from it’s citizens. It’s a dead end because a working, vigorous democracy REQUIRES citizens to play an important part. Hell, on a good presidential election your lucky to get a 50 percent turnout (we might this year). And then it goes down hill from there. I’ve never believed it enough just to go vote. These public officials NEED our input. Have you ever pulled a Jay Leno “street walking” and asked the average citizen who their state senator or representative is? I think you know what I’m talking about. How in the hell are you going to participate when you don’t even know who your public officials are? Did we quit teaching civics and history in our public education system? How can people (citizens) participate when they don’t even understand the inner workings of their government? It shouldn’t surprise anybody why traffic enforcement has deteriorated to the level we see it today. Because of our lack of participation there’s a whole community of yes, traffic safety Nazis, out there singing for more and more enforcement, new laws, and the application of new technology. So, it’s a hell’va sad situation. I guess what I’m saying is that the blame for this sad mess doesn’t lie solely on law enforcement. I’m as upset at the driving public as I am at law enforcement.
But, some of us just won’t buy into the hopelessness of it. If everyday I drive to work I wasn’t constantly reminded of the absurdity of the situation, which keeps my dandruff continuously stirred up. None of us were born resenting law enforcement, we learned “under fire” so-to-speak. We became this way because of what’s going on out on our streets and highways that defy logic of any kind. You may write us off (James, I and others who debate this) as larks but ….we are not going away. We would be negligent as good citizens if we did.
{As far as common scene is applied, I don’t know of too many professional LE agencies that are stopping drivers for doing 5 over.}
There are enough “amateur” agencies out there who do stop for anything over. Remember, those non-trained, non-POST-certified, non-HS graduates have just as much authority as you do to extract money from motorists, which is their job. Many of them – Big Cabin, Stingtown, Caney, Moffitt, Luther, Hulbert, e.g., — do no other law enforcement at all, leaving it for the county sheriffs.
As far as common scene is applied, I don’t know of too many professional LE agencies that are stopping drivers for doing 5 over. I know that we damn sure don’t! When we do speed enforcement we usually start at 15 and that’s been a “rule of thumb” by most. As far the issue of speeding cops. That really drives me nuts too! Keep this one in mind though guys. Many times blue lights and sirens cause drivers to DWHUA in front of us. They completely forget to move over or even stop for that matter ending with us trying to out break somebody talking on their cell phone so that I can make that right turn at the next intersection!! BTW, do you two yield to emergency vehicles by stopping or do you just “slow down” or just “move over”? So many times, it’s much easier to “just step on it”, not to mention in hold-up type alarms it’s not a good idea to run with the siren so that you don’t alert the bad guys that “Here we come!!”. Also, most patrol cops get paid by the hour, so whether we responded to 1 call or 50, it really doesn’t matter what we did, so if you see a cop speeding, he’s probably heading to fix some dumbasses mistake for the third time this week!
Recently, on another forum, an officer from Colorado (I think) said his SOP’s prohibited from driving at the posted speed limit on highways. All of us let him know how stupid that was and he promised to take the postings back to his admin. He said that they didn’t want their officers “leading a parade” down the highway.
In the end, I think we can agree on one thing, much differently I would say that for sure (LOL). That being, we do want the roadways to be safer for all who use them. I agree that all the lane changes make things treacherous and that having a structure of lane discipline is WAY safer. BUT!! Can I assume that both Joe and Mr. Young are mature adults and that your behavior with “no speed limits” would be that of a “mature responsible adult”. Need I remind you that we let the stupid and teenagers drive in this country? Telling some testosterone driven 17 year old, with girlfriend in tote, driving his Roush Mustang that way too rich mommy and daddy bought him as his first car at 16, to be responsible is tantamount to telling Osama Bin Laden to be rational! LOL!
You, having no speed limit at 11 pm on a rainy night on some poorly lite curvy mountain road, would be doing 50 or 55, something very rational. The dumbass, the standard client, is doing 95 because he just finished this statement to his buddy, “Hey, watch this!”.
Remember, what you guys are forgetting is that’s what we as LE have to deal with 95% of the time. If everyday, every time you dealt with a “client”, you had to deal with stereotypical biases that they have about you, (AND YEAH! DAMN IT! If I hear one more F’n Dunkin’ Donut joke! Some of which you two took part in with the Nazi type comments, etc.) you’d have a much more callused view of society too. Remember that every one hates the cops, until you need us! North Hollywood shoot out ring a bell? How many SOB’s were on that scene that day? How glued to the set were you waiting to catch some horrible glimpse of reality? No one ever calls us up to tell us that they’ve had a great day! They call us to tell us that they left their pocketbook sitting on the front seat of their convertible, with top down I might add, while they parked in the FIRE ZONE so that they could pick up their dry cleaning, and some bad man must have taken my handbag! Then they get pissed at us when we look less than interested because we didn’t “call out the dragnet” to unlawfully search every black male within a 20 block radius. Need I say more?
In the end, even after all those horrible insults, the cop that writes you a ticket today, WITHOUT QUESTION!!!, would risk his life by running into a hail of machine gun fire to save YOU tomorrow! For that, we get called NAZI! PIG! RACIST! MOTHER F’er! Who cares if a cop dies?? Meanwhile, a spouse, a child, a parent or a sibling sure does!
Once again James is right on; I see his point but it takes some extended thinking to see it. I’m a little more practical. I’m not advocating the abolishment of all speed limits, as nice as that would be. For the time being, I would just like to see some common sense (I know that’s a relative term) and flexibility from you guys (cops) in enforcement of speed limits. I believe as a practical matter perhaps 10 to 15 over (providing a driver is following all the other rules). Speed limits should be more for reference. One size fits all speed limits just don’t get it, especially on a multi-lane road there’s no need for it. Leave the better drivers alone and catch the truly dangerous ones.
I will be leaving for work this afternoon (probably right after this post) and I can assure you, there will be a zillion drivers on our 6 lane expressway heading North, (Hwy 169, for your reference James) no enforcement of laws that would prevent rear end collisions. Left lane hogs will be blocking and upsetting lane discipline therefore upsetting the smooth flow of traffic. Drivers trying to get around these self centered individuals. As any LEO should know that’s dangerous because of all the lane changes. A road rage incident is always a possibility too. Pretty much like driving in a zoo.
There will most likely be a unmarked vehicle out there writing speeding tickets for 5 to 10 over. Then, like yesterday, there was a state trooper which passed me about 80 mph (65 zone), no lights, no siren. Didn’t appear to otherwise be in a hurry. It’s common around here. We’ve got to get the cops around here to set an example. That would be a good start. I’m certainly not the only one around here seeing the problem; read http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7654&whichpage=1
For now, gotta go to work.
{[Speeding] as of now, is a law that I am tasked to enforce.}
The issue is the psychotic obsession with speeding to the virtual exclusion of other code sections, at least until you need them or they are secondary or tertiary (pronounced “piling on”). It is nigh on impossible to determine the distribution of citations by code section because such information is treated as proprietary by the agencies and any citizen who asks to see a public record must have criminal intent.
However, in 2002(?) the Texas DPS had to respond to a federal court regarding racial profiling and in their report disclosed that the DPS had written just over 1,000,000 speeding citations the test (prior?) year. All other violations combined were ~475,000. In harsher terms, speed too fast for conditions is responsible for something less than 10% of all crashes, yet consumes 67% of enforcement effort. What a waste of public resources.
{ . . .to deliver the horrible notice death message to someone who loved that driver. It would happen. Whether you choose to think that or not, and I’m not referring to a raised limit, but NO speed limits.}
Crashes are going to happen but we are getting quite good at reducing their frequency and their severity. Speed limits do not and cannot affect this frequency but that is something that the enforcement world just refuses to recognize.
Since we have ruled out efficacy as an explanation for this behavior, it once again drives us right back to the best remaining explanation, the factor that correlates more closely than anything else: $100 billion a year in fines.
Use your spell checkers people. And proofread your comments. If you want to make a point it will be better received if written correctly. Ask yourselves if your driving is as sloppy as your commentary.
I have no more of a fascination with speed enforcement that you do with childporn (Joe). It, as of now, is a law that I am tasked to enforce. That’s all! I still think it is a foolish idea to do away with all limits however. If tomorrow, I went to work and the bosses said, “No more speeding tickets, let them drive what ever speed they want.” I would just go about my day writing tickets for the same ol’ things I usually do. My THI kit would be at the ready and with the self assurance, from my beliefs, to deliver the horrible notice death message to someone who loved that driver. It would happen. Whether you choose to think that or not, and I’m not referring to a raised limit, but NO speed limits. Also, I’m aware of your report, a lot of it is interesting but based from data years prior. A lot has changed since then…
Look out James, there’re ganging up on you. I’m just seting back here shaking my head. This fascination they have about speed enforcement. Just like the ones we have around here. I’m not sure why this debate continues. I’m not seeing anyone change their mind…..at all, even just a little so they must be real cops. I see all the other laws avoided to enforce speed limits. My co-workers and I talk about it often. We compare notes. We all see the same insaneness.
I’m in favor of rational laws that promote safe and easy driving. I’m opposed to stupidity and the use of the law to generate cash by criminalizing reasonable behavior.
Driving 37 mph on a highway is tantamount to suicide. It, like 85 mph on ice, is inappropriate. Driving 20 mph slower than the prevailing flow — as I saw on Saturday on my way to Mexico — is stupid. LE should concentrate on isolating and correcting inappropriate behavior rather than seeking out and punishing reasonable behavior.
As to the group of LE and engineers, I direct you to a report known as the MacFarland Report (IIRC), from Harvard College (now university) School of Public Health, circa 1954. It is out of print and extremely hard to find but well worth the effort.
Mr. Young. Today I stopped a driver for an unlawful speed. She was doing 37 mph (posted 65) in the #4 lane (far right) and subsequently she was issued a ticket. Should she have received a citation? Remember, you want to do away with speed limits! She violated a limit, this time it just happened to be the minimum. BTW, I too agree with the bad cops and professional training statement of yours. I consider myself a very disciplined professional, and aside from the ribbing, which obviously you can’t take, I’m seriously offended by your implication that somehow, because I disagree with YOUR logic, that I’m obviously a “bad cop”. Same goes for you Joe, we might have disagreed, but I never insulted you as a person, just your logic. So, if by some chance you were successful in abolishing our nations speed limits, I pretty sure my job would carry on. Drivers would still be doing stupid things and people like you would try to find ways to defend those stupid actions. Attorneys try weekly, so really it’s nothing new. So, as frustrated as you might be, one day when, if by chance, some OTHER “bad” driver runs into you, a professional, like me, will arrive to help sort out that mess.
Smile! I will gladly continue in my efforts to help gather the attention of those who aren’t pay attention. Either way is fine with me, speed limits or not. BTW, your smug remarks didn’t hurt my feelings, I’ve been called a lot worse by people who are a lot worse than you, REALLY! Maybe, one day we might meet, and I would harbor no ill will. I would just do my job and I will do it professionally, whether you would agree with it or not. Remember, we don’t make the rules, we just enforce them, no matter what they might be. BTW While you’re working on getting ride of those pesky speed limits, would mind to get a rider on that bill? One that says we can smack people who are smartasses to us. You see, that’s unlawful for us to do, but I still manage to enforce rules that I may not agree with either….LOL!!
:) I got your blood boiling didn’t I? :)
On a serious note, no ribbing, I work with a group (law enforcement and engineers working together to make our roads safer) within our county that visits high traffic crash areas to review whether or not the scene created the hazard or was it the drivers involved. Recently, we’ve been working on an offramp that had 32 crashes there. We’re not sure of what the TRUE causes might have been. We’ve even tried to recreate some of those crashes. RULE. Never rule out the shear ability of a dumba-s to succeed in their goals. Also, the DOT also just “fixed” one of our high crash area off ramp intersections. The private engineering company who designed it didn’t do the math correctly in developing the proper radius for vehicles to negotiate to curve. Your’s truly found the error! I know, I’m just some stupid cop! In my mindless wondering from the local donut shop, how could I have figured out a complicated mathematical equation? I ain’t be too sure….LOL!
I deal with cars because they are the dominant form of motorized transportation and toward which we should direct our policy initiatives and they are a medium that readers can understand and relate to. We do not need to dilute our efforts by concentrating on the periphery of the population.
As to bashing cops, I need not belabor the obvious. There are a lot more bad cops out there than there were prior to 1974, when the entire dynamic changed. We learn of bad behavior – sometime egregiously bad behavior – by cops every day. What bothers me more than the bad behavior is the casual acceptance of it by the good cops. Help root out those bad cops and I’m on your side. I already support professional pay, professional training, and professional standards.
Mr. Young,
Something I have noticed is that you are always talking about cars…cars, cars, cars.
Something else you are saying is speed is not a factor in a crash. If speed was the cause, they must have committed suicide.
Spring is approaching and the sport bikes will be out like flys. We have talked in person about them and I felt like you blew them off. I felt the reason you did that is…you don’t know much about them. It’s a factor you wish to ignore because it will hurt your theory of speeding. This spring through the fall, they will be out there tearing up the back roads putting your theory to work…going as fast as they want. They will be touching 120+ mph on the straights and doing 80+ around a corner that has a warning of 45mph. There will be many, many, many, crashes that you will never hear about and the police will never know about. The only ones police will hear about are the fatal and serious injury. Why did they crash? You will say “to fast for conditions”. I will say “inexperience
and speeding” meaning…not knowing their bike, not knowing the corner, traction, not having their tires up to temp, getting spooked mid turn and not completing it, road conditions (it wasn’t the same as when they were there the day or week before), trying to keep up with the guy in front of him, EGO, so on and so on. I have seen many guys go down(that means crashing)…because they were going to fast. No two ways about it.
Keep tabs on your local sportbike forums, you will see, and I hope understand, what I am talking about. There are some national ones to, you are a researcher…I’m sure you will find them. Every weekend there will be posts of so and so going down and/or other bikes going down with them. Some will die, some will be critically injured and some will be just plain lucky.
I personally knew 2 that died and many others that were lucky, myself included. Many of mine were directly related to speed, PERIOD!!! Some because of road condition, one I remember vividly. Wasn’t speeding, or as you would put it “going at a rate of speed that I felt comfortable with” (could of been going alot faster), just enjoying the view going around the corner.
You may have more miles then me, as of right now, and no at-fault accidents. Something I have on you though, because of my hobbie, are many single bike accidents. Before any of you knuckleheads chime in saying that I am a bad rider, many of them were on a track where it is encouraged to go as fast as you want. Some of them on the street from my early days of being an inexperienced rider.
You Mr. Young, are a level headed driver, an older one at that. I don’t feel you are really going to do what you are trying to do for the “people” and that is…”go as fast as you want”. It seems that you mostly drive on the highways. You want to abolish the speed limit everywhere, I don’t see that as being vary R&P. For the highways, THAT CAN SUPPORT IT, keep your fight going for an increased limit. But for the back roads, it is not going to matter anyway, the crashes are still going to happen. There are very few sportbike riders that went as fast as they want and are still doing it. Like me, they have felt what happens or see what could happen, if they continued their ways. For many of the ones that did crash, the just turn it in to insurance and write of $5000+. If so many of them would have been doing what they were, my insurance would be alot lower on a sportbike. But that is a whole other story.
So there you go Mr. Young, start twisting my words to your liking. Show everyone how evil of a man I am because I became a cop late in life. I want help people and make a change for good. NOT to harass and collect like you think we do. Let the bashing commence.
URROW is the Universal Rule of Right-of-Way, the body of our traffic laws that proscribe who shall drive where and when. This encompasses driving to the right rather than driver’s choice, signals and signs such as lighted signals and stop signs, and – everything else being equal – the car to the right has the ROW. Speed limits have never been a part of URROW but were added much later and provide no clue as to right-of-way.
dave jokah writes:
{You only have a dozen or SO tickets and you want people to drive like you Ha Ha Ha. That’s a dozen or so times you’ve been caught!! I’ve got about the same amount of miles. I’m in sales and travel around the country. I have none! I go the speed limit and pay attention when I drive! I encourage people not to follow your example.}
I’ve been driving legally since I was 14, with farm tractors and trucks since I was about 12. No at-fault crashes. I’ve been through the Bondurant School on my own dollar and on my own time. I do not impede or interfere with other drivers. None of those cites were for anything other than merely exceeding the arbitrary limit and none of those were for anything even close to dangerous.
So, yes, I want other drivers to perform as well.
Interesting discussion. I have to admit, as a bicyclist I am very much in favor of fairly restrictive speed limits on rural and urban roads. I am unconvinced on either case for freeway speed limits.
If we were to remove speed limits on highways, would we then ask LE to cite high risk behavior drivers? What objective standards would apply? Or would it be subjective? In the case of fog and 25 potentially being too fast, would LE make that determination and ticket for it? Would you propose different standards and determinations of unsafe driving for commercial trucks? Their sheer size and limited maneuverability seems to warrant consideration. While I agree that speed limits seem more arbitrary than scientific, I am not sure that the case for removing limits has been justified. On the other hand, there does not appear to be any significant data to correlate improved safety with fixed speed limits.
James Y – could you define URROW for me please? I haven’t had much luck with a web search.
Mr.Young? You only have a dozen or SO tickets and you want people to drive like you Ha Ha Ha. That’s a dozen or so times you’ve been caught!! I’ve got about the same amount of miles. I’m in sales and travel around the country. I have none! I go the speed limit and pay attention when I drive! I encourage people not to follow your example. Another thing if people want to write in these columns, learn how to spell first! Have a good day everyone.
Ima Safedriver writes:
{Well good luck with getting those changed, I still see that there are limits however…The last part was “joking” jacka-s! And great, I driven nearly then same amount of miles WITH ZERO tickets and NO traffic stops either! What about the poor “victim” of my traffic stop for unlawful speed yesterday? What, no sympathy for her?}
Without knowing the instant situation I cannot offer judgment. I do have empathy for those of us who must suffer fools every day.
Humor and sarcasm are too often lost in Internet blogs. Whether humor or not, childish is still applicable. The key thing for you to remember is that the apologists for lower limits have been consistently wrong and we advocates for rational traffic laws have been consistently right. The safety Nazis kept predicting horrible consequences if limits were restored to prior levels (a “bloodbath”) but we got them restored and even raised well beyond that and all the key measures just kept improving.
The sad fact is that speed limits do not create a safer environment (or any other benefit) but, because they generate $100 billion a year, are protected by institutional inertia and greed.
I am shocked – shocked I tell you – to learn that there is a cop who has received no citations.
Well James, I guess he’s gonna take his marbles and go home. You wore’em down. I thought he might be losing it there for a minute when he says; NANY NANY BOO BOO!! LOL!!!!
It’s a waste of breath or pen to explain anything to these guys because their job depends on their mentality. Minions of the nanny state will always be this way. I guess looking at it from their point of view I can see how they justify their actions. I might be able to go along with some of what he says but he is a typical cop in that “it’s my way or the highway”. No compromise or attempt to understand the other view. Their arrogance kicks in. I think that’s another thing that turns most people off about law enforcement.
Well there’s another stupid article in todays paper advocating what would amount to more tickets; http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=20080219_1_A15_hRoad23528
They’re not saying who this shady group is that they call “a road safety group”. Probably members of some insurance lobbying group. I’m gonna have to cut my blog short today because I need to go check this out in further detail. Says they believe more laws should be enacted. Hell, they won’t enforce the one’s we already have that impact safety.
Keep on speeding I like to keep my job. If you didn’t speed think of how many cops wouldn’t be employed to catch you. Also when its icey don’t speed cause you’ll end up in the ditch and thats right a TICKET for driving stupid.
Well good luck with getting those changed, I still see that there are limits however…The last part was “joking” jacka-s! And great, I driven nearly then same amount of miles WITH ZERO tickets and NO traffic stops either! What about the poor “victim” of my traffic stop for unlawful speed yesterday? What, no sympathy for her?
{IPTM is not some “hack” arm of the scamsurance industry}
Is it not funded in large part by the insurance industry, very similar to the funding by extremely conservative corporations for the rightwing Hoover Institute at Stanford?
{How can you criticize LE on one hand then refer to the statistic kept by us on the other???}
Because your own statistics don’t support your stated case. This is what happens with NHTSA, which gets its data in large part from police reports of crashes, but when those data are tabulated, they prove a case almost a polar opposite to their own verbiage.
{BTW, the DOJ information your referenced ended in 2005. I can tell you that violent crime is on the increase!}
Which is exactly why I wrote right in that post, “To be sure, some rates spiked in 2006 but the trend since 1994 has been down. Whether the spikes are the beginning of a new trend or are merely random fluctuations remains to be seen.” In any case, the spikes are not records as you asserted.
{But, speed limits will remain! I win!! You loose!![sic] Hope you get a ticket! LOL!! Nothing you can do about that! NANY NANY BOO BOO!! LOL!!!!}
Aside from the childishness, your perspective is wrong. We have already gotten limits raised from 55 to 80 in Texas. As I write this, Utah is working on going to 80 and Wyoming and Montana are sure to follow. Yet, even as limits increase, the predictions of a bloodbath (their word) by IIHS, AAA, NHTSA and all the usual safety Nazis has never eventuated.
In my 2 million+ miles of driving, I’ve had only a dozen or so tickets, or one every 167K miles. I’ve had one cite since 1994. I’ve also had zero at-fault crashes. You should encourage other drivers to emulate me.
IPTM is not some “hack” arm of the scamsurance industry. It’s a part of the University of North Florida, an accredited school. In fact, Masters students receive credit towards their degrees if they manage to pass the THI curriculum. It’s a lesson in scientific reconstruction’s, not BS numbers, but real science, recognized through out the world! They have schools in the EU and Australia. How can you criticize LE on one hand then refer to the statistic kept by us on the other??? BTW, the DOJ information your referenced ended in 2005. I can tell you that violent crime is on the increase! Orlando has seen record numbers of homicides in the recent years. And working in the community, not watching the liberal lying media, tells ME that violent crime in increasing, not to mention the frequent symposiums that my administration attends. BTW, UCR’s are the TRUE way to account for crime stats.
Oh, I stopped a “speeder” today. She was doing 88 in a posted 45. Her license was suspended and she was a felony habitual traffic violator. Shall I pass on some crazy non-law to see if you can help to get her out of troubles?
You know this could seeming go on forever!
But, speed limits will remain! I win!! You loose!! Hope you get a ticket! LOL!! Nothing you can do about that! NANY NANY BOO BOO!! LOL!!!!
Ima Safedriver writes:
{Fine Mr. Young! I guess we could argue semantics to the end of time. . . .You agreed with me except for the “understanding” issue.}
Not quite. You omitted the critical time element of the ratio. Also, the very idea that drivers cannot understand the distances that they travel and do so intuitively is completely bogus. Were this truly the case, vehicles would be bouncing off each other constantly. More important than both of those errors is the assumption that a speed limit somehow provides information that overcomes their innate mental deficiency. Such a construction is silly on its face. Semantics are important. For example, scholars have been arguing over the placement of a single comma in our own Constitution for decades.
{It might be one thing for people to do 80 or 90 on some desolate highway in South Dakota but around the hustle and bustle or Orlando, NO WAY! }
You keep trying to bring up exceptions in order to deny any recognition that the rules need to be changed. “Apologists” is what we usually label these folks. Drivers must travel at appropriate speeds given the conditions. The speed limit is not a valid indicator of what appropriate is. While the limit along I-15 between Temecula and San Diego is 70 mph, the normal flow of traffic is much closer to 90 mph and 90 mph is a perfectly reasonable speed. Yet, the law says we’re being unreasonable. What needs to change is not the behavior of the drivers but the law itself.
Drivers crossing Wyoming on I-80 routinely hit triple digits. However, when they cross over Parley’s Summit and down toward Salt Lake City, because the conditions are different, they only run 70-75 mph and they do this automatically without being guided by a speed limit sign.
With sightlines measured in miles, speeds on western Interstate highways could be unlimited and should be unlimited. Would this cause drivers to all driver faster? In a word, no. The old myth that everybody drivers 10 mph over the limit is just that, a myth, propagated by the IIHS, AAA and LE agencies as a tool to lobby against higher limits.
{As far as sending you these reports Mr. Young, what are you the arbiter of all traffic crash investigations? Hey Sarge! Did you send those reports off to Mr. Young for approval yet? He needs to second guess everything we do!}
That isn’t what I said. I don’t expect you to send me anything. You made a claim of a particular anomalous crash, apparently due to poor engineering that comports with my prior experience, and I asked where and when it occurred. You tell me that and I’ll have my colleagues retrieve the information.
As to being second guessed, get used to it. Everybody’s work is reviewed at some point and in some form. You, a public employee, prepared a report that is public information but you don’t want the public to review it because they’ll criticize you for it?
{ Crashes like what I’ve described happen in every state. They are not some rare anomaly that occur once in a blue moon!}
Then show us how often and where vehicles suddenly fly off the road because they’re going too fast. You made the assertion; you bear the burden of proof. Does it happen? Of course, and here’s a hint: suicide. While total fatal crash rates have declined for several years, single-car leaving the roadway crashes have increased. How better to camouflage a suicide so that the insurance company still has to pay?
{If you want to obtain a real view of traffic crash investigations why don’t you contact IPTM.org and enroll in a crash investigation school. This might educate you a little more when it come to factors in traffic crashes! }
While I’m always eager to learn more, I would prefer an independent agent rather than the insurance/enforcement industry hack. The best I ever read was the Harvard School of Public Health (assisted by engineers from MIT) but that was a task force, not a continuing entity.
{Violent crime is at a record high! Oh, wait!! That must be the way LE records the information!}
Complete BS. Go to http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/viort.htm and then tell us where the record is. To be sure, some rates spiked in 2006 but the trend since 1994 has been down. Whether the spikes are the beginning of a new trend or are merely random fluctuations remains to be seen. The key to credibility is to know what you’re talking about and to avoid making unsupported and unsupportable claims.
I enjoy speaking with Joe. As for Joe (2) and James Young….What those two keep saying is the same as, “…It’s not the fall that kills you, it’s the sudden stop at the end!” or “the bullet has nothing to do with killing somebody it’s the gun powder that is responsible.”
Fine Mr. Young! I guess we could argue semantics to the end of time. {The way I view unlawful speed is as a “distance traveled issue”. People can not understand how far they’ve gone in a matter of seconds, thus the reason for limits.}
“That’s just not true. First, speed is defined as distance per unit of time, e.g., mph, fps, or 186,000 miles per second. Second, people can understand how far they’ve gone in a few seconds and do so intuitively. ” You agreed with me except for the “understanding” issue.
It might be one thing for people to do 80 or 90 on some desolate highway in South Dakota but around the hustle and bustle or Orlando, NO WAY! They’d pop over an overpass and traffic would be at a dead stop! Screeeech!! Crash! Now, would you agree that if they had been traveling at a slower speed they would have had a greater distance to perceive the stopped cars and slow down to a safe and controlled stop? Or should they be allowed to pop over that crest doing 110? I know what you going to say already! YES, they should. It’s not speeding issue, it keeping your car under control and that’s a Speed too fast for conditions” issue. As far as I concerned they can be the same thing! Oh, I’m sure you’re going to want every crash report from SR400 detailing every crash! Maybe you can get the USDOT to fund us in making all of our highways completely flat around here so that people can see farther. It must be an engineering issue you’d say! UGH! MORON!
As far as sending you these reports Mr. Young, what are you the arbiter of all traffic crash investigations? Hey Sarge! Did you send those reports off to Mr. Young for approval yet? He needs to second guess everything we do! Crashes like what I’ve described happen in every state. They are not some rare anomaly that occur once in a blue moon! People misjudge the speed,(Sorry!! Speed is defined as distance per unit of time, e.g., mph, fps, or 186,000 miles per second of a vehicle frequently!) If you want to obtain a real view of traffic crash investigations why don’t you contact IPTM.org and enroll in a crash investigation school. This might educate you a little more when it come to factors in traffic crashes!
Oh, when you’re done solving this major issue see if you can take some time to solve all the other socialite violence issues! Violent crime is at a record high! Oh, wait!! That must be the way LE records the information! Sorry, well fix that!!! Damn cops!
Yes, we are probably wasting our time. I don’t really expect to convert anybody whose job depends on maintaining the status quo or on protecting the institution that LE has become. All I can hope to accomplish is to not let bogus assertions go uncontested.
I found his references to the mis-engineered roadways interesting but doubt if I ever get an adequate response. I’m always looking for the odd case, the anomaly, the precedent –setting court decision and he may indeed have something interesting.
James, I think we’re waisting our time on this guy. He’s anouther one of those “my way or the highway” types. When you have to define speeding for someone, I have to wonder.
Yea, I read that article in today’s paper and on the Internet.
Well, unless I’m missing something here …to me SPEEDING is moving at a velocity ABOVE the posted speed limit (often an arbitrary number around here). Speed is just that ….the velocity of a vehicle. Once that speed moves beyond the post speed limit then it becomes SPEEDING. If a vehicle is moving at all it is moving at some speed. Speed will always be a component of transportation. Without it, there’s no transportation. Therefore I believe it’s pretty logical to assume that speed will always be a factor in accidents. Moving above the posted speed limit (SPEEDING) is a prime factor in only a small percentage of accidents …at least from what I have learned so far. I can’t be certain but over a period of time small morsels of information on traffic control statistics have came out in the local paper. If I have my figures wrong and it’s only because they don’t want the public to know, so I believe that about 90 % of all traffic citations in my driving area are for speeding (moving above the posted speed limit, probably less then 10 mph). Conversely, about 90 percent of all accidents are NOT caused by SPEEDING. How anybody can believe that’s responsible policing or enforcement is beyond me. Now, I’m talking about primarily main arterials, expressways, interstates, and large state highways. We have’em all here. You still seem to be hung up on school zones and residential speeds and local streets. I’m not going to get into that argument. That may be some drivers interest but it’s not mine. And as long as the yellow is set to a minimum of 5 seconds I don’t have much problem with traffic lights either but keep the cameras away. But the big main roads, for a whole assortment of reasons, ‘ya damn right I have a problem with speed enforcement in it’s current form. As I have said before, your situation may be totally different particularly if your enforcement area is in one of the coastal cites where the traffic density may be a lot higher.
And you mentioned distance traveled. That’s one of my points. Enforcement is almost non-existent around here. Allowing one car length…or more for every ten mph used to be considered acceptable. Your tyeing braking distance to speed. That’s the way it should be. Also, lane discipline on large multi lane roads are almost non-existent. I have been looking at this situation for thirty years and fundamentally I just can’t figure out what the hell the cops are doing in this state besides being hung up on speeding and avoiding everything else.
Around here, traffic citations provides a economic motive for writing even more citations. This economic motive distorts the setting of speed limits as well as the enforcement of speed limits. You can slice it or dice it anyway you want but that’s totally WRONG. Oklahoma also does NOT have a quota law.
Oh, and you might want to read “Virginia Traffic Fatalities Hit 17-Year High – One thousand motorists died on Virginia roads despite crack downs on motorists and massive speeding ticket fines. http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/21/2148.asp
{How can you think having no speed limit whatsoever could possibly be safe?}
In the proper places, R&P works well. It worked for Montana, it works on the autobahns, and it worked for Nevada. You keep making the error of assuming that traffic safety is a function of the speed limit. That is false. There is no correlation between speed limits or changes in speed limits and changes in key measures of traffic safety performance.
{“Speed may have been a factor, but that’s not speeding.” WHAT IN THE HELL DOES THAT MEAN?}
It is important to understand the difference between “speeding” and “excessive speed” or “speed too fast for conditions.” “Speeding” is merely exceeding the posted limit and has no relationship at all with “too fast for conditions.” They operate independently and depend on different independent variables. Speed depends on the posted limit, an arbitrary number determined by fiat, and too fast for conditions depends on the calculus of complex factors such as the coefficient of traction, sightlines, weather, the driver’s skills, the car’s suspension and tires, etc.
What the law focuses on is the very easy to catch speeding because (1) it ubiquitous, (2) it is long-lived (compared to, say, running a red light), (3) it produces $100 billion a year for law enforcement and their parent jurisdictions, (4) their tools are geared toward making speed measurement instantaneous. The only problem with this is that speeding is not a factor in causing crashes. LE ignores too fast for conditions, the impeder, the distracted, the suicidal, and the incompetent.
{The way I view unlawful speed is as a “distance traveled issue”. People can not understand how far they’ve gone in a matter of seconds, thus the reason for limits.}
That’s just not true. First, speed is defined as distance per unit of time, e.g., mph, fps, or 186,000 miles per second. Second, people can understand how far they’ve gone in a few seconds and do so intuitively.
Your more egregious error is assuming that is why we have limits. Actually, speed limits are a vestigial aspect of an attempt to drive the newly invented automobile out of existence because it scared farmers’ livestock. That law failed but the limits remain, now excused by several different rationalizations. Speed limits do not provide any useful information to motorists beyond what they can (or should be able to) determine for themselves.
{ Recently, we reviewed a fatal crash case where a driver pulled out in front of a motorcyclist.}
Once again, I’d like to see the reports for that crash. When and where was it?
As to the kids killed in the racing crash, all the anti-destination league types will condemn the speeds of the racers, confusing or deliberately conflating speed with racing. Note, however, that the speed limit on that section of roadway could have been 12 mph and it would have made no difference.
Kind of funny! I just found this!!!
The Associated Press
ACCOKEEK, Md. — A car plowed into a group of street-racing fans obscured by a cloud of tire smoke on a highway Saturday, killing eight people and scattering bodies in the early morning darkness.
At least five others were injured in the gruesome wreck along a flat, isolated stretch of highway about 20 miles south of Washington known for illegal races.
About 50 people were gathered before dawn along Route 210 as two cars spun their wheels, kicked up smoke and sped off, said Prince George’s County police Cpl. Clinton Copeland.
Fans had spilled onto the smoky, dark road to watch the cars drive away when a white Ford Crown Victoria unexpectedly came up from behind and smashed into them.
“There were just bodies everywhere; it was horrible,” said Crystal Gaines, 27, of Indian Head, whose father was killed.
Police interviewed the Crown Victoria driver, but no charges were pending, Copeland said. Authorities were looking for the drivers of the two cars involved in the race.
The combination of the smoke and the dark morning likely meant the unsuspecting driver could not see the crowd, police said. A tractor-trailer that came by shortly afterward may also have struck someone on the roadside as it tried to avoid the crash scene, according to investigators.
The Crown Victoria, which had a crumpled hood and a partially collapsed roof, ended up down an embankment with one of the victims lodged inside.
Bodies covered by white sheets lay in the road and on the shoulder across a 50-foot stretch of the road later Saturday morning before they were removed by the medical examiner.
Shoes were strewn about in the grass, and a pair of dark skid marks scarred the highway.
“It’s probably one of the worst scenes I’ve seen,” Copeland said. “This is a situation that could have been avoided, and it’s a very tragic situation.”
About 50 people were watching the race, Gaines said, and she saw the Crown Victoria approach without its lights on. She grabbed her daughter, pulling the girl to safety. But her father, William Gaines Sr., 61, had a broken leg, and was not able to get away in time. Afterward, she found his body on the road.
“He wasn’t breathing; he wasn’t moving,” Gaines said. “His body was in pieces.”
Her brother, William Gaines Jr., was also there. The car came through so fast that “it just ripped people apart,” he said.
“I didn’t even see the car. All I heard was stuff breaking,” he said.
Police could not confirm whether the car that struck the crowd had its lights on.
The victims’ ages ranged from their 20s to 60s, police said. Seven people were pronounced dead at the scene, and an eighth died later at a hospital. Police said a body found in the car was one of the spectators and not a passenger, as they had previously assumed.
Route 210 is a thoroughfare with two lanes in each direction and traffic lights about every 150 to 200 yards. The road is flanked by some businesses but has little traffic in the early morning, Copeland said. The speed limit is 55 miles per hour.
John Courtney said his brother, Mark, 33, of St. Mary’s County, also was among the dead. He identified his brother from a digital image police had taken.
“He liked going to the race track, watching races,” Courtney said. “It’s going to take a toll on my family for a long time.”
Marion Neal feared her 42-year-old brother was among the dead and was awaiting images from the police.
“It’s a tragedy,” she said. “I don’t like racing, but that was his hobby.”
Police said that street races are not uncommon on the stretch of road, but that most occur in the summer and involve motorcycles. But relatives said some of the victims often went to see races held late at night on isolated stretches of road.
“It’s a problem,” said Denee Hines, whose mother owns a hair salon only a few hundred feet from the site of the accident. “Everyone knows about it, but I’ve never heard of it getting this bad.”
I can agree with the Interstate speed limit to a degree, a very limited degree. But what I’m constantly hearing from people here is that they do not want speed limits at all! How can you think having no speed limit whatsoever could possibly be safe? A dead horse, I know!!!! Buuuut, explain this to me please, you said, “Speed may have been a factor, but that’s not speeding.” WHAT IN THE HELL DOES THAT MEAN? You seem to be indicating that speed in no way can ever be contributed to the cause, regardless of roadway type. It’s always something else, but it definitely isn’t speed! I guess we’ve stumbled into the chicken and egg theory! The way I view unlawful speed is as a “distance traveled issue”. People can not understand how far they’ve gone in a matter of seconds, thus the reason for limits. Recently, we reviewed a fatal crash case where a driver pulled out in front of a motorcyclist. The rider died in the crash. The initial response from most on scene was the pickup was at fault. Then “speed” came into play. We did time traveled formulas complete with a reconstruction. The p/u truck driver COULD NOT have seen the motorcyclist when he first initiated movement due to the excessive speed of the bike. How could he react to something he could not have seen? Speed was the cause! Nothing else! Speed! Not reaction time, not a cell phone, not makeup, not a radio, nada….nothing but speed. Yes, more drivers involved in basic crashes most likely were distracted by one of those things but speed CAN be THE factor. According to most people here, NO WAY CAN THAT BE! Obviously, there is no way that I could “speak” for every ticket issued. I would have to say that most likely speed COULD be the most common ticket in the US (I’d put my money on stop sign or red light violations though). I can tell you that for me, that is NOT the case. I can speak for my actions and not the entire US law enforcement body. I write several hundred red light tickets a year, about 90 a month. Followed by “Careless Driving” (reading the newspaper, putting on makeup, stupid driving, etc.), Failing to use correct lane, stop signs, then maybe 20 or more speeding tickets. Which, resulted from calls from citizens complaining of people “speeding” through their neighborhood. Subdivisions call saying that they have a problem. We go out and set up a evil device (I’m sure most of you on this website will hate this thing with a new found passion). It’s called a Stealth Stat. It secretly records speeds along with time of day the speeds occurred so that we know when to go there to conduct speed enforcement. Days before we arrive we put out of variable message board with “YOUR SPEED IS –” SLOW DOWN! DRIVE CAREFUL! Then, a week later, we go out and write tickets. If they haven’t got the idea by this point, DUH! Sign here! I guess we will have to agree to disagree! I can not see the safe reason for no speed limits an I would suspect that most voting people can’t either, otherwise, pointless website…LOL! If by chance we meet on the side of the roadway. I will be polite and do my job. I would hope that I would be treated with respect because that’s the way I treat my clients, Respectfully. Thanks for the entertainment! LOL!
PS I’ll leave with this parting word for everyone on this site. You have every right to disagree with the rules, BUT, for our safety, because we are murdered every day, please leave your seatbelt fastened (if required)and your hands on the wheel. Don’t unbuckle and lean over to the glove box! I hate that!! Drive safe!!!
I guess I just don’t get it. Around here we have one of our major north-south expressways severely limited for 6 mos. for maintenance. I understand that; roads need maintenance. I don’ t like the restrictions either but they are temporary and I can tolerate that. What’s the connection other then not liking something? We’re not taking about senseless enforcement practices and the laws that allow such. Why would I or any of the rest of us want to move? That doesn’t solve anything. You try to fix it, not run from it. What’s your point?
Joe,
In Detroit a week from Monday I-75 is being shut down for two years, give or take a few months.
Do I like it? NO
Can I do anything to change it ? NO
If I don’t like it enough, I can move.
Ah, anouther one of those law and order types. Maybe you should join us because you’ve said nothing either. If you can’t contribute something constructive, go troll somewhere else. And no, if you object to a law, you attempt to change it. That’s the American way. Your way or the highway does nothing to solve the problem.
James you bring up a good point since we’re both familiar with the same part of the country. The little towns like Stringtown, Caney, Hulbert OK just to name a few. They’re almost household names in this state. The main roads that they so successfully hijack the through traffic needs to be diverted around these little towns and then make it unlawful for those towns to annex them. But if you want to hear some squealing you’d hear it when the word got out. These little towns know they would “dry up on the vine” economically if that happened but it couldn’t happen to a better bunch. Here’s a classic example: http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=071011_1__WAGON43382
Just as happened when the Interstate highways bypassed many small towns when it was built. But in Oklahoma they found a way to solve that. They just went out and annexed the highway. Problem solved. Per the local paper, Roland Oklahoma made over a million dollars in traffic ticket revenue, I think it was in ‘03. I forget what the population is but it’s tiny. You can’t even see the town from the highway. Yep, I think we got a problem all right regardless of what the law enforcement types say.
All the contributors to this blog should consider running for some political office. You have debated this subject for the last half an hour and have said nothing !!
The bottom line, if you don’t like the laws and rules of these United States, PLEASE Leave……
Ima Safedriver, I noticed you didn’t elude to the number of traffic citations written and what they were written for. I think you know where I’m headed on this one. Most jurisdictions I’m familiar with, that’s almost a state secret. I wonder why? In fact I would like to see a state law requiring all courts that handle traffic citations be required to report this data to the state to be published on the Internet. Then we could find out who the speed trap champions of the state are and perhaps do something about it.
A few years ago I noted the local cops running a fairly consistent speed trap up the road from me. So I ordered all the accident records from the DPS (Department of Public Safety). The county engineer gets them to me. The four miles that I requested, out of nearly 60 accidents, nearly all were intersection accidents unrelated to speeding. If my memory serves me right only about 3 of the 60 were for actual speeding and they were single car, non-injury accidents. Surprise, the speed traps couldn’t have been for accident prevention in this case.
You noted that many of your accidents were rear end. It may be debatable but I suspect that since they were in heavy traffic they couldn’t have been speeding. Speed may have been a factor, but that’s not speeding. Parents have been known to back out their driveway at very low mph and drive over a family member, sometimes with fatal results. Aside from that, I surmise that most of these rear enders you eluded to are caused by distractions in the cabin ( changing a CD, cell phone, or GPS). A study conducted a couple years ago documented that around 70 percent of crashes are caused by cabin distractions…..not speeding. The 25 crashes you mentioned for turning to fast I would rate as driving to fast for conditions or reckless driving…again little to do with speeding.
I don’t know where residential speed limits and school zones got into the pix. I don’t think anybody is advocating raising or not enforcing them. My big beef is the speed traps on multi-lane highways/expressways some rural highways and perhaps a few municipal streets. Needless speed traps for the express purpose of revenue generation that has no effect on accidents. Meanwhile traffic laws such as following to closely (common around here), left lane blocking providing poor traffic flow and multiple lanes changes by multiple vehicles (common around here) and cell phone users glued to their phone conducting what seems like contract negotiations or something while totally unaware of their driving environment (common around here). All these are dangerous driving actions and NOT enforced around this part of the country and have nothing to do with traveling above the speed limit. Also, we need a state-or-the-art drivers training program for all our future drivers thus creating better drivers right out of the box…so to speak. Law Enforcement to my knowledge provides little support for this. In general, if your not creating a dangerous situation on the road, you should be left alone…within some limits of course. These are just SOME of the issues I have. I am over 60, safety is my constant concern also as I work in maintenance for a major airline. The ideal situation would be responsible drivers and police working together to eliminate truly bad drivers but your not gonna do it setting out on main roads writing speeding tickets all the time.
You may be a good officer with good intentions but you may have a totally different driving scenario then I see. The issues that I bring to light may not be relevant to your situation. I’m telling you how it works around my part of the country (Oklahoma). You can’t blame drivers like me who deplore the situation when it goes on for decades and seems to be getting worse.
Why is it that when rational motorists bring up the idea of raising limits on highway, that all the anti-destination types immediately bring up a school zone? There are no schools and residences on Interstate-grade highways. Or they bring up residential streets. The argument is not about residential streets or even feeders or collectors but about highways and some arterials in urban areas.
Ima Safedriver writes:
{I know of about 25 crashes that were drivers trying to go around a turn too fast. Is that the roads’ fault or the drivers?}
Where is this? That’s an intriguing situation, one that I want to examine because it so closely parallels a situation on old hwy 33 (now US 412) near Locust Grove, OK many years ago. Enforcement action was ineffective but relocating a small section of the highway resolved the problem forever.
The type of car is complete BS! I have never know any officer to look for the “red sports car” theory, top down or up for that matter. Atlanta, is it possible that YOU made the mistake by driving a car that you were not accustomed to and that’s where it went wrong, not the cops doing something different? There is a well respected eye surgeon in my area and he has a new bright yellow Lamborghini. I have never seen him over the limit (reasonable stuff, just like anyone). Gosh! Without having the number in front of me, I would guess that in 2007 we had something 3,000 crashes. Most of those were heavy traffic rear end situations, which we could argue to the end of time whether those were caused by “following too close” or due to the drivers “speed” causing a “distance traveled issue”. I know of about 25 crashes that were drivers trying to go around a turn too fast. Is that the roads’ fault or the drivers? I can not understand how anyone can think that having no speed limits could be a safe thing. My daughter likes to ride her bicycle on our street. I could not even imagine if we were to take away speed limits. She’d get killed in a matter on minutes. Some yahoo would decide that his 1988 Trans Am, and pumped up by yesterdays Nascar race, would do 85 mph. My 8 year old riding her bike could not distinguish the fact that the car is covering 125 feet. By the time she’d see him and try to move she’d be run down. No you can no more factor for grandma than you should factor for Mr. Leadfoot. Thus the middle number is found. Several times a year, in my area we evaluate speed limits. We look at the signs, roadway conditions, traffic volume. In other words a new school is being built in the area. Should we reduce the speed limit during the hours that children are present or should we leave it at 45? Or should we let the children decide when it’s safe to dart across the roadway and just pray that Mr. 19 year old Leadfoot with girlfriend in tote didn’t watch once of those run from the cops thrill movies last night.
{Even if traffic flow is light, the human factor is the key to safe Traffic Engineering. You have to factor for the lowest common denominator, not the best driver.}
So Ima Safedriver, what is it your saying…if there’s 1,000 vehicles on the road at a given time and one 80 year old grandma out there on the road with them, they all must dive her speed? No wonder the speed limits are so low. You’ve enlightened us.
Ima Safedriver , so since you seem to be an expert on the subject, could you please tell us how many accidents annually are caused by pure speeding in your jurisdiction, no other factors involved. Then tell how many citations a year are written and how many are written for speeding?
I have been without a traffic ticket for my entire life, up until last year. In August, I received two tickets in one week. I did not drive any differently that I usually do, but I found out that what you drive definately changes your odds. During that week where I received two tickets, I was driving a friend’s Mazda Miata. It’s a little bright blue sports car. Somehow, the police decided that I was speeding. I had no idea that I was going over the limit, but each ticket was for 1-4 mph over the limit.
I considered it to be a “luxury penalty”, since they’d never have ticketed me in my Toyota Corolla. But in a sports car with the top down, they figured, “Hey, he as ample extra cash, just look at what he’s driving”.
Let it never be said that what you drive is not a determining factor in who gets pulled over. As for me, I returned the car to my friend, and am driving my Corolla again. The tickets were out of state in a state with no reciprocity agreement with my state, so I guess it’s only about the money.
Oh yeah, what made it even better is that the cop who pulled me over the second time had a burned out headlight. Who’s gonna give him a defective equipment ticket. If you live in a glass house….
{A bad crash can happen anywhere! Even in your neighborhood! That’s where you live, right?}
No, when I’m in Temecula, I’m much farther East.
Yes, crashes can occur anywhere. However, where we differ is in the focus of LE’s efforts. The Texas DPS wrote over a million speeding cites in 2002(?), more than twice as many as all other combined. That’s about $150 million for one agency in one state. LE has sold out to speed control, a $100 billion a year industry, even though such efforts have no effect on key safety measures. We need to concentrate on those factors that affect driving efficacy: remove the impeders, focus on the truly dangerous and leave the people who are running 15 mph over the limit alone.
{Even if traffic flow is light, the human factor is the key to safe Traffic Engineering. You have to factor for the lowest common denominator, not the best driver.}
Traffic engineering factors for the reasonable driver, not the best and not the worst. The various DMVs are supposed to weed out the worst drivers and we can ignore the best. The human factor that operates in America right now has produced the best safety record in our history. It is only the law that is 30 years behind the curve and we all know exactly why that is. If you want the factor that explains the most phenomena in traffic control, follow the money. It tells us much more than any other single factor.
A bad crash can happen anywhere! Even in your neighborhood! That’s where you live, right? Even if traffic flow is light, the human factor is the key to safe Traffic Engineering. You have to factor for the lowest common denominator, not the best driver.
I know the intersection, although I’m not over there too much. I don’t understand the rest of the post. When was this?
Speaking of California, a fellow traffic LEO told me that there was a bad crash at Quiet Meadow Rd. and Santiago Rd. The driver pulling out from Quiet Meadow thought the vehicle going eastbound on Santiago Rd. was going much too fast for him react safely. I guess there is a school zone nearby too. The odd thing was that traffic counts showed a reduction in traffic volume by 115 cars from 2005 to 2007.
Ok, I can agree with the highway ONLY portion of your mission. However, I still think there should be limits in each lane. Example, the “fast lane” should be something like 80-90, the middle lane at 60-70, and the far right something like 50-60. That I can agree with! I think most law enforcement would agree with that too. Too bad those decisions can not be made by us. That is up to our law makers to determine and for us to enforce. Not the other way around. Don’t get mad at us because people complain about speeders. My “issue” has been, and will be, red light runners. But the argument from every driver for ANY traffic violation always seems to be the exact same thing! “Don’t you have anything else better to do?” There needs to be rules in societies, otherwise chaos will take place. New Orleans post Katrina strike a bell? No rules, then Darwin’s theory!
{“Speeding affects nobody”
Let me guess, neither does drunk driving?}
You don’t understand metaphors, do you?
If I’m running 92 mph in the #2 lane and I pass a guy in the #3 lane who is running 70 mph, he need take NO action, no change of speed or direction, and no evasive action. Whether I’m there or not, his actions remain the same. Why don’t you explain exactly how “speeding” DOES affect other drivers.
{So, since you’re suggesting that there should be NO SPEED LIMITS anywhere, you are suggesting that every state DOT should rebuild every single road to accommodate the fastest driver in the fast car “theorem”.}
No, that’s not what I’m suggest at all and you should know it. Highways are not modified (beyond maintenance and technological improvements as they deteriorate). Drivers are already driving their optimal speeds or very close to them and we are enjoying the best safety rates in the history of America. What we are doing is working fine except for the legal interference, which messes it all up. Removing speed limits on rural highways will not change normal driving speeds significantly. We know this from prior experience as well as multiple academic and scientific studies. Removing rural limits simply makes legal what is already happening. It is up to each driver to drive within the limits of his and his vehicle’s capabilities for the given roadway. It is also disingenuous to conflate urban and rural speed limits and driver behavior.
{ What happens when YOU, Mr. Young, are not THAT driver and a faster driver approaches you from the rear AND at a rate much faster than you? Are you now the problem?}
No, because I move over for faster traffic. I don’t impede other drivers and I expect the same from them.
“Speeding affects nobody”
Let me guess, neither does drunk driving?
So, since you’re suggesting that there should be NO SPEED LIMITS anywhere, you are suggesting that every state DOT should rebuild every single road to accommodate the fastest driver in the fast car “theorem”. What happens when YOU, Mr. Young, are not THAT driver and a faster driver approaches you from the rear AND at a rate much faster than you? Are you now the problem?
Your scenarios are absurd, but I expect that you know that.
As drivers, we should be able to expect all other drivers to be able to comply with the reasonable part of the law, the URROW parts. That includes driving in the rightmost lane if you are traveling much slower than the normal flow of traffic. This is a perfectly reasonable request, is the law in virtually every state, yet is enforced only rarely. Impeding affects many other drivers. Speeding affects nobody.
{Do you work the general public at all?}
I’m not sure what you mean by that nor why it matters. I’m a financial executive and do some side consulting in the movie industry. I used to work at the emergency room of a major trauma hospital (for Joe, that’s Hillcrest).
{ BTW, you still haven’t answered the question of at what point do you consider speed to be unsafe?}
Reread my post, supra. Note that there is no single magic speed but that, just like the phrase says, “for conditions.” 25 may be too fast in the fog and too slow on the freeway. If your car is breaking loose, you probably need to back of a little.
{You said you support “traffic control”. What’s that mean? Everyone decides what is safe for themselves?}
I’m not sure what you reference here. It is a fundamental assumption of traffic engineers that, yes, drivers do decide what speed is safe for them. I’ve said that about 4 times now.
{ So if I can drive my monster truck at 90 mph down your street in front of you house you mean to tell me you have NO OBJECTION to that behavior at all?}
90 mph would be impossible on virtually all residential streets. Try a more reasonable scenario.
{ Tell me, because all you said a couple of times is that you have, should there be a “limit” to driving behavior based on what ever magical number you want to draw from (85th, 93rd, 22nd).}
No, that isn’t what I said. Before you go spouting off nonsense, exposing an unparalleled level of ignorance, ask one of your traffic engineers what the 85th percentile speed is and why it’s important. Hint: it is not an arbitrary number.
{ BTW , we have a four lane road that covers a business area, in 2007 there were 23 crashes, 3 of which were fatal. We did critical speed measurement’s to determine the fastest you could travel this curve and it was 50 mph. Two drivers killed themselves but one crossed the lane an killed a mother of two infants! In your logic we, as traffic officers, should NOT enforce the posted limit of 35! We should do what in order to keep others from dying here? Hire a full time person to stand there flagging down every single driver to tell them it’s a dangerous curve and “have fun” drive at what ever f’ing speed you want? That is truly what I DO NOT understand about your cause!}
You don’t understand because you don’t want to. If you really have such a dangerous road, the solution lies not in law but in re-engineering it. There was a very dangerous road on old hwy 33 near Locust Grove, OK and OKDOT tried lowering the limit with heavy enforcement from OHP. Didn’t work. What it took was moving the roadway. Problem solved.
Where is that road and what jurisdiction does it fall under. I want to contact them to learn more about it and the alleged fatalities
“A speed too fast for conditions is defined as a speed that exceeds the capabilities of car and driver.” GREAT, NOW I UNDERSTAND! So I’ll be over to your house with my top fuel funny car to break 300 mph on your street just about the time you back out of your driveway on your drive to work or the market?
“You don’t get it. That judgment is left up to each individual driver, not the “other person.” There is your answer!!!! That guy in front of you doing 65 thinks that is what is safe for him! You, OTOH, seem to think that EVERYONE must be just like you!
I’m a spectacular shooter! SWAT team, firearms instructor, pistol match team, etc. Let me crack off a round 3/10th’s of an inch from your head with my .308. I can do it! I’m safe, what’s the matter? You wouldn’t trust MY abilities with my rifle?
That’s what your missing. Not everyone thinks the same way as you! Grandpa might think 35 is fast enough for his car and his abilities. Michael Andretti knows that he can do 185 mph while bumping the car in front of him. Do you want to be in that car?
Do you work the general public at all? BTW, you still haven’t answered the question of at what point do you consider speed to be unsafe? You said you support “traffic control”. What’s that mean? Everyone decides what is safe for themselves? So if I can drive my monster truck at 90 mph down your street in front of you house you mean to tell me you have NO OBJECTION to that behavior at all? Tell me, because all you said a couple of times is that you have, should there be a “limit” to driving behavior based on what ever magical number you want to draw from (85th, 93rd, 22nd). BTW , we have a four lane road that covers a business area, in 2007 there were 23 crashes, 3 of which were fatal. We did critical speed measurement’s to determine the fastest you could travel this curve and it was 50 mph. Two drivers killed themselves but one crossed the lane an killed a mother of two infants! In your logic we, as traffic officers, should NOT enforce the posted limit of 35! We should do what in order to keep others from dying here? Hire a full time person to stand there flagging down every single driver to tell them it’s a dangerous curve and “have fun” drive at what ever f’ing speed you want? That is truly what I DO NOT understand about your cause!
{Also, tell me one more thing and I’m out of here. What do YOU define “speed too fast for conditions”?}
A speed too fast for conditions is defined as a speed that exceeds the capabilities of car and driver. 25 mph in heavy fog may be too fast for conditions even though the posted limit is 80 mph. Speed too fast for conditions may be defined by a resulting crash, loss of cohesion, or where closing distances exceed braking distances. Just today, I was running 92 mph between Temecula and San Diego and I was being passed. So 92 mph was not too fast for the conditions. The true danger on that highway (the 15) is going too slow for conditions, e.g., the guy in the #2 lane (of 4, sometimes 6) running 70 mph.
{ When and who should determine when that “other person” is going too fast?}
You don’t get it. That judgment is left up to each individual driver, not the “other person.”
{ If a professional racer drives 100 mph through an area (I won’t say “school zone” because I’m sure you have some moral objection to those too) where children are attempting to cross the roadway to get to a school, should that be consider “unlawful” or “unsafe”?}
Probably. OTOH, how many school zones are there on Interstate highways?
{I have searched! But all I can find are nut jobs telling everyone that the cops are all criminals out to steal your money. And how speed limits are unsafe and cause more crashes than drunk drivers, who you also seem to support.}
You need to reread it.
LE has created a hell of a mess for itself. Beginning in about 1974, far too much LE has concentrated on the low-hanging fruit of speeders, along with secondary and tertiary charges, to be explained by any improvements in traffic safety related to those efforts. You isolated yourselves from the public, now speak your own language, and suffer from virulent institutionalism completely unrelated to your legitimate public safety needs.
I has become apparent much too quickly that you have no interest in a legitimate discussion but are just trolling. If you really want to learn something, you need to check your attitude that because you’re a cop you know more than everybody else on these fora. What you know is much too narrow and much too steeped in LE institutionalism to withstand academic scrutiny.
Also, tell me one more thing and I’m out of here. What do YOU define “speed too fast for conditions”? When and who should determine when that “other person” is going too fast? If a professional racer drives 100 mph through an area (I won’t say “school zone” because I’m sure you have some moral objection to those too) where children are attempting to cross the roadway to get to a school, should that be consider “unlawful” or “unsafe”?
Ima writes:
{You are seriously suggesting that everyone driving on the roadways should be able to pick the speed limit they want to drive?}
In a word, yes. It really is a simple concept and being as close to the law as you claim, you should be able to comprehend this. Engineers set limits according to the 85th percentile rule, setting the limit at the minimization point of the crash incidence curve. Politicians then interfere and lower the limit, thus forcing drivers backwards and up the crash incidence curve in order to be legal. On Interstate-grade and rural highways, the minimization point occurs closer to the 95th percentile, that is, even faster.
Speed limits have never been a part of URROW, do not offer valuable information and provide no benefit to drivers. There is no correlation between speed limits and key safety measures. In harsher terms, speed limits do not affect traffic safety in any way.
{You think we should do away with speed limits? You can’t be serious. Right? Tell me you’re not serious, please.}
Not only am I serious, I’m right and I’ve got all the science on my side. If you have any credible evidence to the contrary, now is the time to offer it.
{I jest a lot to poke fun at you guys but your ideas are flawed.}
Then give us the proof that they are flawed.
{ People constantly run red lights and traffic crashes are taking place every mile.}
Please don’t insult us that way. Traffic crashes, especially fatal crashes are very rare; they do not take place every mile.
{What is the answer guys? Seriously. Tell me the answer!!}
We’ve already told you the answer; you just don’t like it.
“It ain’t what you don’t know that hurts you; it’s what you know for sure that just ain’t so.” — Mark Twain. It’s time for you to take a fresh look at your narrow little world.
I have searched! But all I can find are nut jobs telling everyone that the cops are all criminals out to steal your money. And how speed limits are unsafe and cause more crashes than drunk drivers, who you also seem to support. Now, you say that you actually have a position. ??
Ima Safedriver, I don’t think anybody here or on the other bloggs are suggesting the absence of traffic control, I’m sure not. Having said that I’m not going to reiterate the several posts I’ve made elsewhere on this issue. I suggest you check out some of the posts on speed limits ect. There are plenty of posts there to explain some of our positions on the speed limit issue.
You are seriously suggesting that everyone driving on the roadways should be able to pick the speed limit they want to drive? That would be the same as doing away with lines in a fast food restaurant or a theme park. Everyone just mill in and poof! Bedlam erupts. You think we should do away with speed limits? You can’t be serious. Right? Tell me you’re not serious, please. Joe, you mention left lane hogs. As an officer for 17 years when you stop someone for impeding traffic you’d swear you just raped their mother. They curse you out and scream, “Don’t you have anything else better to do?”
Every single red light light runner says, “that light was yellow…”. No one, nowadays , is willing to accept their responsibility for their actions. I jest a lot to poke fun at you guys but your ideas are flawed. Obviously, no government in the modern world operates this way. I went to Puerto Rico not long ago and traffic rules don’t exist and thus Bedlam. People constantly run red lights and traffic crashes are taking place every mile. What is the answer guys? Seriously. Tell me the answer!!
And Hubert, take your buddy Ima Safedriver and troll somewhere else. Your obviously clueless. You make meaningless blanket statements.
A title like Ima Safedriver makes me immediately suspicious that your trolling and not really interested in the issues. Find somewhere else to troll. While your at it don’t break your arm patting yourself on the back for being such safe driver. With the arrogance you portray, why do I get the feeling you could you be one of those left lane hogs?
Ima Safedriver writes:
{What the heck is wrong with you people? Your own numbers speak against your movement! An 18% increase of fatal crashes and you want the DOT to do away with the increased fine amounts? Sounds like we need to make speeding a trip to jail.}
I agree. Let’s set up speeding as a felony, perhaps a capital crime, and watch the public rise up in unison and smack the lawmakers and law enforcers right across their silly greedy faces. That is essentially what happened in VA with their exorbitant “fees”: the public protested and the authoritarians backed off. Yep, speeding as a jailable offense would last about 48 hours because the public would be hanging legislators not in effigy but from trees.
{What’s the answer then? Just let everyone on the road figure out what speed they want to drive . . .[?]}
In a word, yes. That is the way that engineers determine the scientific speed limit, a limit that is then ignored for political purposes.
{If this website would offer a reasonable answer to solve the problem someone might listen to you. Instead you bitch, you’re what’s wrong with America today! I hope all of you get tickets!}
That’s why, at least in part, nobody takes LEOs seriously, instead viewing them as armed thugs bent on collecting as much money as possible. I have been lobbying legislators for years in 4 different states. They rarely take drivers as a serious group because drivers don’t offer the campaign contributions that the insurance industry and police associations do. And in Texas and California, I have been denied even access because I had made no contributions to their campaigns.
We know the answer. The problem is overcoming the political inertia fear and greed, driven by special interests, to actually use the scientific methodology.
What the heck is wrong with you people? Your own numbers speak against your movement! An 18% increase of fatal crashes and you want the DOT to do away with the increased fine amounts? Sounds like we need to make speeding a trip to jail. Like Hubert said, do the speed limit! The signs say “speed limit” not “speed minimum”. What’s the answer then? Just let everyone on the road figure out what speed they want to drive and just “Have Fun!”. Gesh!! Give me a break! If this website would offer a reasonable answer to solve the problem someone might listen to you. Instead you bitch, you’re what’s wrong with America today! I hope all of you get tickets!
One problem with construction zones these days is the fact that they hire people who don’t have a clue how to direct traffic. I have had several times where the person directing traffic has put me in an unsafe position because they can’t coordinate with the other person directing traffic at the other end of the construction zone. Or they put up cones which really confuse the driver and make manuvering them a mystery.
IMO The whole idea is to lower the speed limit even further to generate even more revenue.
In IL often work zone speed limits go up with no lane closures at all or a shoulder making up for a closed lane. The net result is that the flow of traffic is a little slower than normal but still over the usual 55mph speed limit. Except now the speed limit is 45mph. Following the work zone limit is risking one’s own life by becoming a speed bump. Trouble is the speed camera doesn’t care.
Also I’ve noticed that the the lay outs for construction zones have become a lot more slip shod and difficult to follow than in the past. Some things I’ve seen were just outright idiocy. It seems like with RLCs they make conditions more dangerous and hope ‘enforcement’ will make it safe.
One problem drives have in the USA is that they don’t pay attention to our laws. If the speed limit sign says 45 MPH….that is what it means. It don’t mean to drive 50 mph.If it says 60 mph, that is what is means. I travel the interstate and other highways every day. What do most people drive? 10 to 20 mph OVER the speed limit. We are a nation of law breakers. Today many people talk about illegal immigrates etc. If you drive over the posted speed limit, then you are breaking the law…just like the illegals. You are bresking the law.
Ever fudge on your taxes?
We all know by now that most trafic fines are , for makeing money, not safty. they take every opertunity to impound your car!!! guess why most of this hapens on the week end When they hook on to your car ,70.00 min. is charged right then , at least 20.00 per day is then added . the county then gets from .42to .50 percent of the total bill.
Alvin Roberson Said that
this is also true of drunk driving laws. the fact is sober drivers kill almost two thirds of all people in fatal accidents in america. drunk drivers kill one third. the fact is, madd has created a 3 billion dollar industry for the justice system. the number of fatal accidents as a whole hasn’t gone down, nor has the number of drunk driving fatalities. Now, that is not to say that people should dirve drunk, that is just to say that our justice system has accually become an adversaryal monetary system. Because in a justice system, one would rather let a guilty man free than convict the innocent.